02-02-2005, 05:27 PM | #41 |
The Intermittent One
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i also can speak from experience,
if it were not for the welfare state system, unfortunately my family would have been well below the poverty line many times, and so I wholeheartedly, ifyou haven't guessed already, support the welfatre system, and left-of-centre politics |
02-02-2005, 05:30 PM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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Other than nausea-type reactions to the Germany item, does anyone think that the logic of the move is errant or *gasp* immoral, and on what, if any, grounds?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-02-2005, 05:32 PM | #43 | |
The Intermittent One
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02-02-2005, 05:45 PM | #44 | |||
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Well of course the taxes here are high too, but people are not taxed beyond their means.
Also, there are many other factors to GDP besides taxes. Taxes is also not a direct influence, but rather, would affect consumer investment. Imports and Exports, however are direct factors. Quote:
That quote was from this article.
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02-02-2005, 05:47 PM | #45 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Some people do need help - and it should be there for EXTREME cases - but generally people just want a free ride and live off the system. In my opinion - it makes people lazy. And I am not saying that your family is lazy or anything - I'm just a similar experience. We lived in an apartment when I was a baby which my mother said had cockroaches hanging from the ceiling and stuff.
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02-02-2005, 05:54 PM | #46 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
Quote:
It's my money - I worked for it - i should get to keep it. [edit]Looked it up - Bush was being beat up for an economy with a 3.1% growth rate.
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02-02-2005, 05:57 PM | #47 |
The Intermittent One
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of course, if there were no taxes, how would gov'ts be able to find their little wars and so on?
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02-02-2005, 06:00 PM | #48 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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it is more of a threat to a country's general well-being to have some of it's populace be dirt-poor... it is a fact of life that some will take advantage of the system... but many do not... who should be the priority? and even those that do... would it be better to leave them no resort but crime? btw, if it's legal in germany... it's not really immoral, is it
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02-02-2005, 06:01 PM | #49 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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if the Europe continues to move toward socialism - it will collapse because the money won't be there to support and everyone will be against any cut backs (as they already are) to save some of the required social programs.
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02-02-2005, 06:03 PM | #50 | |
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02-02-2005, 06:07 PM | #51 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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btw - NJ in November 2004 had an unmployment rate of 4.4% while the US average was - 5.4%.
New Jersey Economic Indicators (pdf)
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02-02-2005, 06:12 PM | #52 | |
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02-02-2005, 06:12 PM | #53 | |
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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02-02-2005, 08:04 PM | #54 |
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Northern Ireland Peace Process in Crisis (From AOL News)
The IRA has rejected claims it was involved in a £26.5m bank robbery The IRA has withdrawn future co-operation on disarmament as the Northern Ireland peace process hit a new crisis. The Provisionals said the scheme to put all its weapons completely and verifiably beyond use was no longer on the table, claiming the British and Irish governments had withdrawn their commitments and obligations. The IRA has carried out three acts of decommissioning. But in a new statement it denied it was an obstacle to a lasting and durable settlement over allegations of criminal activity. A statement said: "We do not intend to remain quiescent within this unacceptable and unstable situation. It has tried our patience to the limit." "Consequently, on reassessment of our position, and in response to the governments and others withdrawing their commitments, we are taking all our proposals off the table. "It is our intention to closely monitor and to protect to the best of our ability the rights of Republicans and our support base." The IRA has already rejected claims it was involved in the £26.5 million Northern Bank robbery but claims by police chiefs on both sides of the Irish border that it was, as well as allegations by the Republic's Taioseach Bertie Ahern that the Sinn Fein leadership of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were aware of the planning of the raid have ruled out any lingering hope of getting the peace process back on track again. The hard hitting statement did not however carry any threat of a return to full scale violence. A Downing Street spokesman said they were not surprised by the IRA statement. "The fact remains that it was the IRA that did carry out the Northern Bank robbery and as the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach said yesterday therefore it is the IRA that is the sole obstacle to moving forward." |
02-03-2005, 10:28 AM | #55 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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prostitution is a tough one though... every country has it, quite extensively in fact... if it is going to exist no matter what we do, is legality a better way to control the negative aspects of it? not a simple question
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02-03-2005, 12:31 PM | #56 |
Elf Lord
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Ah, the problems yours, brownjenkins, not mine. I can assert that prostitution is immoral because of its devaluation of sexual congress, its degradation of participants, and its destructive nature to society in myriads of contexts. I can also assert that poverty requires a response from individuals and socieal structures. Because there are moral absolutes which are recognized across humanity and religions. But, if Hitler wants to think and act otherwise, you have no basis to reject that society's mores. No more the forced prostitution of employables without other recourse. Your ranking of the "value" betrays your appeal to those absolute values you happen to endorse, but I may reject them (as the purveyors of prostitution in Germany apparently do). Then, how do you justify the imposition of your private morality upon a class of employers who are merely trying to get a productive society going?
From my point of view the forced selling of male or female persons under government order is immoral in any culture of society. Period. on your own argument you cannot assert that. And, if morality is as you say societally derived and the Germans derive this one, how dare you impose your system?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-03-2005, 01:41 PM | #57 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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as always, it's a matter of balance... what works best here and now... best being the peaceful survival of both the individual and society as a whole... perfection will never be achieved in our world, eventhough those with an absolute morality work under the assumption that such a thing is possible
do you disagree that poverty, in and of itself, is a cause of many of societies problems? do you understand the idea that having to compromise one's moral stance on an issue is sometimes necessary to achieve the most workable, albiet not perfect, solution? do you disagree that prostitution has always and will always be a part of society and that eliminating it is simply not a realistic goal? to address an issue one must first view it realistically, when laws are designed with unachievable ideals in mind they often have a tendency to actually make the problem worse... a good example is the drug war in the US during the 80s... a noble "ideal" which resulted in higher drug prices, more drug-related crimes, and more deaths btw, i did say i was against the "forced" part... i don't think subsistance-style welfare programs should have any qualifiers as far as employment goes
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02-03-2005, 01:46 PM | #58 | |
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02-03-2005, 01:46 PM | #59 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Pverty is a problem - but it's also relative. Poverty will always exist - it can be reduced by certain degrees - like it has in the US. Even what is considered poor in the US have their own home - have 1 or 2 cars, etc. There is very little poverty in the US which would produce epedemic diseases like you describe. I also disagree that the government should give out handouts to people who don't wish to help themselves.
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02-03-2005, 01:49 PM | #60 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 02-03-2005 at 01:52 PM. |
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