Classical Music - Page 3

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 12:46 PM

Has any one ever heard of Leos Janacek?

Elfhelm · 10-01-2003, 01:33 PM

I have been collecting classical records for about 35 years. I have gone through many phases in my love of music. When I was young I was bothered by the idea that taste could be different for different people, and I really wanted to believe there was an absolute truth of what is good music. Over the years I have learned that the universe is infinite and various and that I cannot impose my personal taste as absolute truth.

If I argue, please enjoy arguing with me or don't, but it isn't personal, OK? These are just opinions. :-)

Bach is not the father of classical music. Bach is my favorite composer, but he was the end of an era, not the beginning of one. Many of the people before Bach are amazing. Take Buxtehude, for example. Bach skipped out of school and hiked for days to see this man play organ. Back up one era to the Rennaissance and you'll find people like Josquin Des Prez and Palestrina, without whom Bach's music would not have been possible. Go back another era to the time when the Papacy was in Avignon. Aha! There it is. The invention of polyphony! Guillaume de Machaut is the man I would call the father of classical music, if anyone.

The concept of using mathematics completely to compose was actually first proposed by an astronomer, Kepler, in 1619 in a book titled Harmonice Munde. He was calculating the star movements which he called the "music of the spheres". He wrote, among other things, that "that the movements of the planets are modulated according to harmonic proportions." Actually the idea goes as far back as Pythagoras who discovered that the lyre can be tuned mathematically. Many composers use mathematical principles when composing, including Bach. Wolfgang Graesers argued that Bach used math when writing the Art of the Fuge, one of my favorite Bach compilations. The tempered scale, and the famous well-tempered clavier are mathematical deviations from the natural harmonic scale. Building on these thoughts, the Viennese composer Arnold Schoenberg late in the 19th century tried to develop a system that incorporated all 12 tones of the tempered scale. In my opinion, the tempered scale makes music sound dull. To use all twelve notes in a studied avoidance of major and minor chord relations is not my cup of tea. I like to hear notes bent and twisted to express passion.

Igor Stravinsky lived to be 89 years old. He began as a post-romantic, became an impressionist, switched again to atonality, then settled into neo-classicism. I don't know which phase you find monotonous. I find the later phase to be boring. I love the works of his impressionistic phase. Bela Bartok and Alberto Ginastera were greatly influenced by this phase of Stravinky's work. Their works, together with Ravel, Debussy, and Gershwin, are my favorites from the 20th century. I continue to find other composers of this period and style to add to my collection, such as Szymanofsky and some works by Prokofiev. I like Alban Berg, but mostly because he's a modernist who wrote opera, like Britten.

I love opera. Opera, opera, opera! The Apollonian side of me loves to dissect music, but the Dionysian side loves opera! I wish I could spend the whole day writing about my love of music, and especially to expound on which operas I most want to see, but I have to go earn some money.

John Cage is a conceptual artist. It's a different genre. Just because he uses elements of music in his performance art doesn't mean he is a classical composer. Many artists in every genre were influenced by the concept of relativism. It's just a part of our development as a species. I wouldn't call any of them jerks. I believe that they all believed in their visions with the same passion that I have towards mine. As it happens, our tastes are not the same, but I do not fault them for pursuing their visions. If nothing else, the discussions that arose in their wake were constructive. I have done conceptual and performance art. It's a different art, I tell ya. It includes all the arts and none of them at the same time. What the audience should understand is that most performance artists believe that art took a wrong turn when it let specialists take over selected areas. They seek the wholistic art of the shaman in a prehistoric culture because they feel something was lost when the arts became distillations or artifacts rather than a part of everyday existence. When Cage, for instance, composes a poem by selecting each next word that begins with each next letter of James Joyce's name from one chapter of Ullysses, he is actually proposing that the book can be read by other people in any way they choose. When he uses dice to determine the next note of a piece of music, he is making a philosophical statement. As such, it is subject to debate. One can argue, ignore, or attack. Of the three, the latter is least intelligent, in my opinion.

I am personally bored by minimalism in any of the arts.

I better get to work!!!!

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 01:53 PM

wow! thank you Elfhelm.
There is a funny story about josquin de prez. de prez had been under the service of a king for some time and he wanted a raise. the king promises him one. after a while though he still has not given it and de prez really needs it. one day the king commissions a cantata(a piece for the church to be sung as a praise to god) and de prez writes it and calls it "remember thy promise unto thy servant oh lord"(subtly reminding the king of his promise of a raise) the king gives him his raise and de prez writes a cantata entitled "we gives thanks oh lord" . I love that story.

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 02:16 PM

MY 200th POST!- halelujah! halelujah! ha-le-lu-jah!- from HANDEL'S messiah.

Elfhelm · 10-01-2003, 02:21 PM

Yeah! That's a great anecdote.

Do you know the one about Mozart and Palestrina? The Pope was not allowing Palestrina's music to leave the Vatican. I guess he wanted people to have to visit there in order to hear it. When Mozart was a child his father took him to the Vatican. They performed a mass by Palestrina. He went back to the hotel room and wrote it down! Then his father took it back to the Vatican and showed it to them. This got them invited to meet the Pope, who asked him never to do it again! LOL!

Elfhelm · 10-01-2003, 02:26 PM

Oh, it was a piece by Gregorio Allegri: Miserere mei. Sorry.

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 02:26 PM

lol.

i never heard that one! have you heard that while...
a concert of berlioz' requiem was bieng performed. the conductor took a break right at a crucial moment to take a snuff. berlioz grabbed the baton and finished conducting himself.

Elfhelm · 10-01-2003, 02:30 PM

It's a wonder he didn't smack the conductor with it!

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 02:31 PM

maybe he did!

i hope so!

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 02:35 PM

Gregorio allegri... i've heard it before...

Elfhelm · 10-01-2003, 03:38 PM

Listening to Beethoven today. String Quartets. Anyone care to post what they are listening to (classical) today?

hectorberlioz · 10-02-2003, 12:21 AM

Listening to berlioz' 'harold in italy' with excerps from 'le damnation de faust' and 'les troyens'. very good.

Elvedans · 10-02-2003, 11:24 AM

Does anyone else love Adiemus? It's real uplifting stuff!

Elfhelm · 10-02-2003, 03:34 PM

I do enjoy new age music on occasion, especially when I am tired of thinking. But this thread is about classical, which usually means dead people or living people who write for the same groups who play dead people... Oh that's a terrible definition, but since Johann Strauss waltzes were popular music in theirday but are listed with classical music, I can't be more specific. In any case, popular genres aren't even considered cross-over classical unless they feature symphony orchestras or string quartets and the like.

I'll cheerfully check out Adiemus, but maybe we should have a different thread for New Age groups. By the way, check out Amethystium.

hectorberlioz · 10-02-2003, 06:11 PM

A great composer i just discovered is Bedrich Smetana. also Leos Janacek. Along with Antoninn Dvorak these three make up the main czech composers.
Yes please keep this thread clear of anything like new age.

b.banner · 10-02-2003, 06:41 PM

i like classical music and movie music that is classical movie music

hectorberlioz · 10-02-2003, 06:43 PM

like star wars? i like that too. that is what i would call 'film scores'

gimli7410 · 10-02-2003, 07:04 PM

off topic but hector your inbox is full

b.banner · 10-02-2003, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by b.banner
i like classical music and movie music that is classical movie music

alll you have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you

hectorberlioz · 10-02-2003, 09:52 PM

thats wierd, i dont have anything in my inbox. i delete everything once i read it.
have you posted here before gimli?

10-01-2003, 12:46 PM	#1
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Has any one ever heard of Leos Janacek? __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 01:33 PM	#2
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I have been collecting classical records for about 35 years. I have gone through many phases in my love of music. When I was young I was bothered by the idea that taste could be different for different people, and I really wanted to believe there was an absolute truth of what is good music. Over the years I have learned that the universe is infinite and various and that I cannot impose my personal taste as absolute truth. If I argue, please enjoy arguing with me or don't, but it isn't personal, OK? These are just opinions. :-) Bach is not the father of classical music. Bach is my favorite composer, but he was the end of an era, not the beginning of one. Many of the people before Bach are amazing. Take Buxtehude, for example. Bach skipped out of school and hiked for days to see this man play organ. Back up one era to the Rennaissance and you'll find people like Josquin Des Prez and Palestrina, without whom Bach's music would not have been possible. Go back another era to the time when the Papacy was in Avignon. Aha! There it is. The invention of polyphony! Guillaume de Machaut is the man I would call the father of classical music, if anyone. The concept of using mathematics completely to compose was actually first proposed by an astronomer, Kepler, in 1619 in a book titled Harmonice Munde. He was calculating the star movements which he called the "music of the spheres". He wrote, among other things, that "that the movements of the planets are modulated according to harmonic proportions." Actually the idea goes as far back as Pythagoras who discovered that the lyre can be tuned mathematically. Many composers use mathematical principles when composing, including Bach. Wolfgang Graesers argued that Bach used math when writing the Art of the Fuge, one of my favorite Bach compilations. The tempered scale, and the famous well-tempered clavier are mathematical deviations from the natural harmonic scale. Building on these thoughts, the Viennese composer Arnold Schoenberg late in the 19th century tried to develop a system that incorporated all 12 tones of the tempered scale. In my opinion, the tempered scale makes music sound dull. To use all twelve notes in a studied avoidance of major and minor chord relations is not my cup of tea. I like to hear notes bent and twisted to express passion. Igor Stravinsky lived to be 89 years old. He began as a post-romantic, became an impressionist, switched again to atonality, then settled into neo-classicism. I don't know which phase you find monotonous. I find the later phase to be boring. I love the works of his impressionistic phase. Bela Bartok and Alberto Ginastera were greatly influenced by this phase of Stravinky's work. Their works, together with Ravel, Debussy, and Gershwin, are my favorites from the 20th century. I continue to find other composers of this period and style to add to my collection, such as Szymanofsky and some works by Prokofiev. I like Alban Berg, but mostly because he's a modernist who wrote opera, like Britten. I love opera. Opera, opera, opera! The Apollonian side of me loves to dissect music, but the Dionysian side loves opera! I wish I could spend the whole day writing about my love of music, and especially to expound on which operas I most want to see, but I have to go earn some money. John Cage is a conceptual artist. It's a different genre. Just because he uses elements of music in his performance art doesn't mean he is a classical composer. Many artists in every genre were influenced by the concept of relativism. It's just a part of our development as a species. I wouldn't call any of them jerks. I believe that they all believed in their visions with the same passion that I have towards mine. As it happens, our tastes are not the same, but I do not fault them for pursuing their visions. If nothing else, the discussions that arose in their wake were constructive. I have done conceptual and performance art. It's a different art, I tell ya. It includes all the arts and none of them at the same time. What the audience should understand is that most performance artists believe that art took a wrong turn when it let specialists take over selected areas. They seek the wholistic art of the shaman in a prehistoric culture because they feel something was lost when the arts became distillations or artifacts rather than a part of everyday existence. When Cage, for instance, composes a poem by selecting each next word that begins with each next letter of James Joyce's name from one chapter of Ullysses, he is actually proposing that the book can be read by other people in any way they choose. When he uses dice to determine the next note of a piece of music, he is making a philosophical statement. As such, it is subject to debate. One can argue, ignore, or attack. Of the three, the latter is least intelligent, in my opinion. I am personally bored by minimalism in any of the arts. I better get to work!!!! __________________ cya

10-01-2003, 01:53 PM	#3
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Josqui De prez wow! thank you Elfhelm. There is a funny story about josquin de prez. de prez had been under the service of a king for some time and he wanted a raise. the king promises him one. after a while though he still has not given it and de prez really needs it. one day the king commissions a cantata(a piece for the church to be sung as a praise to god) and de prez writes it and calls it "remember thy promise unto thy servant oh lord"(subtly reminding the king of his promise of a raise) the king gives him his raise and de prez writes a cantata entitled "we gives thanks oh lord" . I love that story. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 02:16 PM	#4
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	MY 200th POST!- halelujah! halelujah! ha-le-lu-jah!- from HANDEL'S messiah. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 02:21 PM	#5
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Yeah! That's a great anecdote. Do you know the one about Mozart and Palestrina? The Pope was not allowing Palestrina's music to leave the Vatican. I guess he wanted people to have to visit there in order to hear it. When Mozart was a child his father took him to the Vatican. They performed a mass by Palestrina. He went back to the hotel room and wrote it down! Then his father took it back to the Vatican and showed it to them. This got them invited to meet the Pope, who asked him never to do it again! LOL! __________________ cya

10-01-2003, 02:26 PM	#6
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Oh, it was a piece by Gregorio Allegri: Miserere mei. Sorry. __________________ cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 10-01-2003 at 02:29 PM.

10-01-2003, 02:26 PM	#7
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	lol. i never heard that one! have you heard that while... a concert of berlioz' requiem was bieng performed. the conductor took a break right at a crucial moment to take a snuff. berlioz grabbed the baton and finished conducting himself. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 02:30 PM	#8
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	It's a wonder he didn't smack the conductor with it! __________________ cya

10-01-2003, 02:31 PM	#9
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	maybe he did! i hope so! __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 02:35 PM	#10
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Gregorio allegri... i've heard it before... __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 03:38 PM	#11
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Listening to Beethoven today. String Quartets. Anyone care to post what they are listening to (classical) today? __________________ cya

10-02-2003, 12:21 AM	#12
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Listening to berlioz' 'harold in italy' with excerps from 'le damnation de faust' and 'les troyens'. very good. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-02-2003, 11:24 AM	#13
Elvedans Diamond Of The Night Sky Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Old London Town (Well somewhere near there) Posts: 366	Does anyone else love Adiemus? It's real uplifting stuff! __________________ I see a little silhouetto of a man. Scaramouche scaramouche will you do the fandango? Thunderbolts and Lightning, very very frightening me!

10-02-2003, 03:34 PM	#14
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I do enjoy new age music on occasion, especially when I am tired of thinking. But this thread is about classical, which usually means dead people or living people who write for the same groups who play dead people... Oh that's a terrible definition, but since Johann Strauss waltzes were popular music in theirday but are listed with classical music, I can't be more specific. In any case, popular genres aren't even considered cross-over classical unless they feature symphony orchestras or string quartets and the like. I'll cheerfully check out Adiemus, but maybe we should have a different thread for New Age groups. By the way, check out Amethystium. __________________ cya

10-02-2003, 06:11 PM	#15
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	A great composer i just discovered is Bedrich Smetana. also Leos Janacek. Along with Antoninn Dvorak these three make up the main czech composers. Yes please keep this thread clear of anything like new age. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 10-02-2003 at 06:12 PM.

10-02-2003, 06:41 PM	#16
b.banner Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Trying to keep a hold on my temper so I don't turn into a big green guy. Posts: 572	i like classical music to i like classical music and movie music that is classical movie music __________________ "We are going to tickle some Aes Sedai under the chin, rescue a mule, and put a snip-nosed girl on the Lion Throne. Oh, yes. That's Aviendha. Don't look at her cross-wise or she'll try to cut your throat and probably slit her own by mistake."-Mat Cauthon from Wheel of Time "Don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...."-Dr. Bruce Banner HULK BATMAN THE FLASH

10-02-2003, 06:43 PM	#17
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	like star wars? i like that too. that is what i would call 'film scores' __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-02-2003, 07:04 PM	#18
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	off topic but hector your inbox is full __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

10-02-2003, 09:52 PM	#20
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	thats wierd, i dont have anything in my inbox. i delete everything once i read it. have you posted here before gimli? __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Classical Music II	Earniel	Entertainment Forum	943	06-09-2012 01:23 PM
Hector Berlioz-The Man, his Music, the Romantic.	hectorberlioz	Entertainment Forum	55	06-01-2004 09:13 AM
Music of the LOTR Movie	Nuraith TarLhailatar	Lord of the Rings Movies	38	11-16-2002 12:36 AM
Mythodea - theme music for NASA`s 2001: Mars Odyssey.	galadriel1	General Messages	9	07-20-2001 03:49 PM