ADD & ADHD in kids- bad parenting? - Page 3

Elvengirl · 01-01-2004, 05:25 AM

There is no scientific evidence proving that a chemical imbalance in the brain is responsible for the symptoms of ADHD or that ADHA is a "brain-based" disease.
Nor do I belive that depression is a disorder in the brain. I never said that people should "just deal" with a problem, just don't take a pill for every single thing because that will not handle it. Alzheimer's is a physical problem not mental and does medication cure peolpe of their heart problems? I have not seen it happen.

Though I have seen remidies that do work and if anyone's interested I'd be happy to tell you where you can get the same data. One book that comes to mind is called Clear Body Clear Mind. It talks about the use of drugs, chemicals, pesticides, toxins, food preservatives, pain pills, and other chemicals and the effects it can have on the body and how one can handle them.

The post on ephedra points out what I am saying. Over the counter drugs should not be taken lightly. Some or most are very harmful.

Valandil, it cheers me to hear that you have an active young child. This reminds me of some friends of ours. Thier first child was a very quiet, soft-spoken, reserved child and their second was quite the opposite. They were kind of worried about him being overly active. But I think they are great qualities to have in a person. Through correct raising and teaching that child can grow to use all that energy to producting positive results in his life. Nothing at all should be done to suppress that unique being.

Daisy thanks for that link.

jerseydevil · 01-01-2004, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvengirl
There is no scientific evidence proving that a chemical imbalance in the brain is responsible for the symptoms of ADHD or that ADHA is a "brain-based" disease.

Oh there isn't? And on what expert grounds do you make these claims?

Quote:

Nor do I belive that depression is a disorder in the brain.

Maybe you should actually do some research instead of just listening to a much a quacks. If you believe that depression is not a brain disorder in MANY people - then they must be who you are listening to and you refuse to listen to any other scientific evidence. Or else you are stating your own opinions as fact. Many people suffer from depression - such as manic depression - which is a brain disorder. Maybe you should do some research on how sertionim levels affect people and their moods - before making such outrageoous statements.

Quote:

I never said that people should "just deal" with a problem, just don't take a pill for every single thing because that will not handle it.

I don't think anyone is saying take a pill for everything. But you are making ourrageious statements like people shouldn't take medication for anything.

Quote:

Alzheimer's is a physical problem not mental and does medication cure peolpe of their heart problems? I have not seen it happen.

They actually don't know what causes allzheimers and is a chemical imbalance any different? As for heart medication - it does help people. Some heart medication thins the blood to prevent clottinga dn so forth. Different medications help different things.

Quote:

Though I have seen remidies that do work and if anyone's interested I'd be happy to tell you where you can get the same data. One book that comes to mind is called Clear Body Clear Mind. It talks about the use of drugs, chemicals, pesticides, toxins, food preservatives, pain pills, and other chemicals and the effects it can have on the body and how one can handle them.

All "natural" medicines don't work as well. As for things having an effect on the body - everything you take into your body has an affect. All a person is is chemicals and minerals.

Quote:

The post on ephedra points out what I am saying. Over the counter drugs should not be taken lightly. Some or most are very harmful.

Actually it disputes your claim that all natural has no side effects.

Starr Polish · 01-01-2004, 01:56 PM

Elvengirl, there is evidence supporting that depression is a "disorder of the brain", or psychological disorder. Since it deals with intense emotions, how could you argue that is not brain related?

Most medicine doesn't cure a person, it just makes things easier to deal with. In some cases, yes, I think this is wrong, but I find it almost offensive that you would suggest people not take medicine to aid with heart problems. My stepfather would have probably had a heart attack by now if he didn't take blood pressure medicine, and my grandfather would probably die if he didnt take his heart meds, from another and more serious heart attack.

Do you disagree with chemotherapy and radiation as well, even when they are the only known way to control cancer?

Though I support uses of natural medicine (herbal tea, mostly) for minor aches and things like colds, I do agree with jerseydevil. Not all natural remedies work, and some are harmful if taken incorrectly. Everyone should be informed of what they're putting in their body, whether it be some type of food, an herbal remedy, or a synthetic pill.

Starr Polish · 01-01-2004, 01:57 PM

Elvengirl, there is evidence supporting that depression is a "disorder of the brain", or psychological disorder. Since it deals with intense emotions, how could you argue that is not brain related?

Most medicine doesn't cure a person, it just makes things easier to deal with. In some cases, yes, I think this is wrong, but I find it almost offensive that you would suggest people not take medicine to aid with heart problems. My stepfather would have probably had a heart attack by now if he didn't take blood pressure medicine, and my grandfather would probably die if he didnt take his heart meds, from another and more serious heart attack.

Do you disagree with chemotherapy and radiation as well, even when they are the only known way to control cancer?

edit: And please don't mention holistic medicine in this case, because the results for that are so varying it's hard to say if it actually works. And, often times, because of the diet that cancer patients are put on, they develop anemia and it is overlooked by holistic doctors. Yes, I know chemo can cause anemia, but it is carefully monitored and can be helped by (gasp!) more medication.

Though I support uses of natural medicine (herbal tea, mostly) for minor aches and things like colds, I do agree with jerseydevil. Not all natural remedies work, and some are harmful if taken incorrectly. Everyone should be informed of what they're putting in their body, whether it be some type of food, an herbal remedy, or a synthetic pill.

Elvengirl · 01-01-2004, 06:12 PM

I see you didn't read the website I put up. And on what expert grounds do you stand to call them quacks? I have posted several books and references which give factual data.

Here are several- This is to give more information to anyone who is interested.
www.cchr.com
Mad in America by Robert Whitaker
Clear Body, Clear Mind
No More ADHD by Dr. Mary Ann Block
Dianetics

"I don't think anyone is saying take a pill for everything."
I think the psychs and medical doctors are, though 'everything' is a very general word.

I never said that any or every natural item will be the best cure. Obviously, there are harmful natural plants in the world.

And sorry but a person is not only chemicals and minerals, there is a spirit and a mind to us as well.

I'm not here to argue. I am giving my views which I believe in. I do not believe that psychiatrists will handle any "mental disorder" and I am passing on the data I have to give all of you some more information. Hopefully it can help you.

jerseydevil · 01-01-2004, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvengirl
I see you didn't read the website I put up. And on what expert grounds do you stand to call them quacks? I have posted several books and references which give factual data.

Yes - and leave out anything that they don't believe in.

Quote:

Here are several- This is to give more information to anyone who is interested.
www.cchr.com
Mad in America by Robert Whitaker
Clear Body, Clear Mind
No More ADHD by Dr. Mary Ann Block
Dianetics

You expect me to take dianetics seriously? I have that book.

Quote:

"I don't think anyone is saying take a pill for everything."
I think the psychs and medical doctors are, though 'everything' is a very general word.

Everything isn't a general word - it's pretty specific - it means everything. And you just implied that doctors only give pills without thinking. Many do - good doctors don't though.

Quote:

I never said that any or every natural item will be the best cure. Obviously, there are harmful natural plants in the world.

Well then you should be able to admit that no all natural remedies are good for you then.

Quote:

And sorry but a person is not only chemicals and minerals, there is a spirit and a mind to us as well.

Having a spirit is a belief - no basis in fact and the mind is only a series of chemical reactions and electrical impulses taking place - this you can observe scientifically.

Quote:

I'm not here to argue. I am giving my views which I believe in. I do not believe that psychiatrists will handle any "mental disorder" and I am passing on the data I have to give all of you some more information. Hopefully it can help you.

But helping is stating your views - telling people that medicines are useless doesn't help people. You know people who suffer from depression go through a lot of stigma about serious depression and taking medication for it is a lot of the hardest thing for someone to bring themselves to do. You're blanket statements about your opinions on medication is rather disturbing to someone who has suffered from severe depression and the only thing that helped them in handling it was the medication. The medication isn't a cure all - but it gives a person a chance to think and not feel like the world is falling apart around them.

Elvengirl · 01-02-2004, 10:29 AM

JD, if you have a different opinion then fine. What's true for you is true for you. I believe what I wrote and I am passing on data to support my beliefs. I DOES help people and if it helps anyone else then that's great!

jerseydevil · 01-02-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvengirl
JD, if you have a different opinion then fine. What's true for you is true for you. I believe what I wrote and I am passing on data to support my beliefs. I DOES help peolpe and if it helps anyone else then that's great!

How is telling people they shouldn't use medicines and tht doctors don't know anything - helping people who need help?

Are you a medical professional? Have you gone to medical school? Do you know ANYTHING about the brain? By your statements - you don't know anything other than you have these convictions that are not based on facts or any type of scientific study.

brownjenkins · 01-02-2004, 02:21 PM

one thing that has to be considered is that even though many medications do "work" for certain conditions, it is, more often than not, not really understood why they work

ritalin is a great example... its use as a treatment for ADHD was discovered almost by mistake... it was seen to be somewhat effective and became the standard for many years (since the 50s)... more recently it has been shown to have a host of side effects that may make it worse than no medication at all in many cases

it has been supplemented by other drugs, but as history shows, it can take as long as 50 years before side effects are even partially understood... things get even more complicated when multiple drugs are put into the same person

does this mean drugs should be avoided in a life-threatening situation? no... but ADHD is rarely, if at all, at that level

on Elvengirl's statements, i still wouldn't go as far as saying "never use medicines"... but i'm close, doctors in the U.S., even good ones, have tremedous incentives from drug companies to use their products, especially the new ones... and few have the time, if any, to know each and every one of these drugs as well as they should... most people assume that their doctor is an encyclopedia of knowlege about medicine... this is not true, even among specialists

i had a personal experience where my online research on a certain drug interaction was news to a specialist... and information she appreciated knowing (which shows to me that she is a good doctor)

so keep all options open, do your research, and don't be afraid to question the professionals... and if they don't appreciate it, find someone else

Cirdan · 01-02-2004, 02:27 PM

Children with ADHD suffer from more than just annoying behavioral problems. The inability to focus deprives them of the ability to experience and learn from life. No amount of "disipline" and "love" can change this fact. I have been dealing with an ADHD son for seven years. Withholding his medication only serves to alleviate my guilt and leaves him less able to function in the world. My wife has not worked for the last five years so that she could spend more time with him. The negative behavior people associate with ADHD is only a symtom of the difficulty in acquiring rules and processing information. When they can't participate like others they react negatively to the failure.

It is only servicing one's own ideals to be "against medicating" and shows no real concern for the day to day struggle of the children who suffer from this disorder. A cure would be nice but until then this is the best option available.

Starr Polish · 01-02-2004, 03:46 PM

Not all ADHD sufferers need medication to concentrate. In some cases, at least among those I know who have ADD/ADHD, it is possible to concentrate when they are taught certain techniques and exercises. I'm not saying in individual cases it shouldn't be used, but it seems to me that most doctors (and a lot of parents) decide to just give solve the problem with a pill.

And brownjenkins is right about doctors being pushed into using new medicines. When the allergy medicine Claritin came out, I was given a prescription because they thought it was possible my moderately severe sinus problems were caused by allergies. It did nothing, but the continued to encourage it. Also, I also have an allergy to penicillin, and because of my constant sinus infections, I am often on antibiotics. I was given another cheap sulpha based drug that caused me to break out in painful and numerous hives (some covered almost my entire underwrist area), and wasn't warned that this reaction could occur. I know have to take more expensive antibiotics, and have never been informed of their side effects, but while I am on them I tend to have very bad headaches and abdominal cramps. If the doctors knew about these side effects, you think I would have been informed of them.

And Elvengirl, you never answered my question? What is your stand on chemotherapy and radiation use in the case of cancer?

jerseydevil · 01-02-2004, 04:38 PM

Brownjenkins - most medicines are found by mistake. They notice a side effect that is positive in some individuals and try to enhance that side effect to help others. Rogain is an example of this, as is Viagra and many other drugs.

Drugs are not clear cut and I hardly ever take drugs - except pain releaver because I suffer from migraines.

Starr Polish - you can always ask the pharmacy or your doctor for the side effects list. All drugs have to have published side effects - no matter how rare they are. Why do you think on the commercials fro drugs they list all those things?

As far as ADHD goes - it is true that people with mild ADHD propably don't need to be medicated - but that does not go for everyone. The drugs do help many people who have ADHD and they do serve a purpose as Cirdan stated.

***Valandil*** · 01-02-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Children with ADHD suffer from more than just annoying behavioral problems. The inability to focus deprives them of the ability to experience and learn from life. No amount of "disipline" and "love" can change this fact. I have been dealing with an ADHD son for seven years. Withholding his medication only serves to alleviate my guilt and leaves him less able to function in the world. My wife has not worked for the last five years so that she could spend more time with him. The negative behavior people associate with ADHD is only a symtom of the difficulty in acquiring rules and processing information. When they can't participate like others they react negatively to the failure.

It is only servicing one's own ideals to be "against medicating" and shows no real concern for the day to day struggle of the children who suffer from this disorder. A cure would be nice but until then this is the best option available.

Cirdan, my very best wishes to you in dealing with this. Parenting is hard enough in any circumstances. Your situation must call for extra doses of patience and care.

Is your son only seven... or is he older and it has been seven years since the diagnosis?

Cirdan · 01-02-2004, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Cirdan, my very best wishes to you in dealing with this. Parenting is hard enough in any circumstances. Your situation must call for extra doses of patience and care.

Is your son only seven... or is he older and it has been seven years since the diagnosis?

Thanks.

He's a handful but at least he's a big LotR fan. He's almost ten. We didn't medicate for several years after diagnosis, but it became clear he needed help. Without the medication he is unable to focus. Math is out of the question without it. He literally can no longer even add and subtract when we give him a break from the medication. We've managed ways of minimizing the side effects as well as techniques to get through days off.

Ruinel · 01-02-2004, 06:48 PM

Cirdan... my hat is off to you and your wife.

As for kids who need medication and those that don't... I once substituted for a music teacher and one of the little girls in one of the kindergarten class was so out of control that I had to put her outside the classroom in order to give the rest of the class instructions for the class period. She kept peeking her head in every 60 to 90 seconds asking if she could come in yet. I told her to be patient and I'd come see her in a little bit. Once the kids had their instructions and were started I went outside the room and talked with her about how sad I was that she wasn't inside the room with us and how much I wanted her to be there with us... and I asked her what I could do to help her to sit still, sit without talking and making noises, not spin around yelling, and to keep her hands off the other children. We made a contract and I would give her a signal to remind her... she was still somewhat out of control, but so much better than before. When I talked to her teacher, I asked what was wrong with her... the teacher said she was diagnosed with ADHD but her parents refused to put her on the recommended medication. We both felt really sorry for the little girl because she really WANTED to sit still and quiet, keep her hands to herself, etc, but it was so hard for her to do so... she couldn't focus on the lesson and I could see her struggle with this.

I just felt so sorry for her.

Ruinel · 01-02-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Brownjenkins - most medicines are found by mistake. They notice a side effect that is positive in some individuals and try to enhance that side effect to help others. Rogain is an example of this, as is Viagra and many other drugs.

doctor: "so, how is the medication you're taking for this trial? Anything to report?"
patient: "hmmm... uhhhh... I keep getting a stiffy after I take that pill."
doctor: "hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm"

***azalea*** · 01-02-2004, 11:50 PM

Along the lines of what Cirdan was saying, I wanted to add that there's the "other" component of ADD -- the symptom of being unable to concentrate. I had a student in regular ed. that I felt probably had ADD (w/ out hyperactivity), and I could really only tell the parents to monitor it, because although many teachers do say it, they aren't legally allowed to say anything like "I think your son has ADD" because it is a medical diagnosis. But they CAN tell them what the problems are and that those happen to be symptoms of ADD, so you might want to monitor this in the next year and if it continues to affect his learning, consult your doctor. The child is not a behavior problem per se, but his mind is hardly ever on the task at hand, and thus these poor kids get in trouble for not doing the work by teachers that don't know any better, and worse, they don't learn what they're supposed to be learning. You see, they are UNABLE to focus, to attend. They can't help it, and no amount of prodding, discipline, or love at home can make them pay attention. They CAN'T. Their brain isn't working correctly somewhere.
In response to the comment about children on medication not doing better (than their peers) in the long run -- of course not. They have a disability. As I said in an earlier post, the medication isn't supposed to be a cure, it's a tool to deal with the disability. We can only hope that someone will find a better tool without the side effects. But I would argue again that there's nothing that says children with the condition can't grow up and be incredibly successful despite their problem. Many do. And it all depends on what you call success, anyway, right? If they can form healthy relationships and make a place for themselves in society, then I call that successful.
Incidentally, ADD/ ADHD isn't caused by a chemical imbalance (this is based on what I learned when I was teaching, more may have been learned since then, but this was what was the accepted explaination at the time -- ADD/HD remains mysterious in terms of what causes it, like autism and so many other disorders that manifest behaviorally). It is apparently a problem of blood flow in a certain part of the brain, the part dealing with attention. The reason Ritalin helps is because it's a stimulant that allows the blood vessels in the brain to expand, thereby allowing the blood flow to increase to that area, alleviating the problem. Of course the brain is so complex, mysterious, and inaccessable that attempts at treatment are educated guesses at best. I guess what the parent has to decide (and I think I might have already said this) is "Does the potential risk caused by any side effects of the medication outweigh the benefits it gives my child in terms of success academically and socially?" If the answer for the parent is "no," then they should feel no guilt in giving their child the medication, as long as the decision is revisited yearly to determine if it is still working for the child and is still needed (like I said, puberty is a good time to try and see if they're able to cope without the medication, because of course if they're able to do that, it is preferrable, as is the case with any medication. I think we all acknowledge that the preferred mode for anyone is to be on as little medication as possible, but there's no reason not to take it if it helps to ease the condition, whatever it might be).

Ruinel · 01-03-2004, 02:08 PM

Good advice, azalea.

I think there's been some finger pointing at parents that they are not giving their kid enough attention or teaching them how to behave or study properly. And there might be instances where that might be true. But I think that isn't the case in a REAL situation where the kid ACTUALLY has ADD or ADHD... like azalea and Cirdan said... it's more than meets the eye.

samwiselvr2008 · 01-03-2004, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Good advice, azalea.

I think there's been some finger pointing at parents that they are not giving their kid enough attention or teaching them how to behave or study properly. And there might be instances where that might be true. But I think that isn't the case in a REAL situation where the kid ACTUALLY has ADD or ADHD... like azalea and Cirdan said... it's more than meets the eye.

Your probally right, like I said before, I don't know much on the subject, but I still havn't ment a homeschooler with ADD or ADHD, have you? Well, I geuss that they do have it, but it's just rare, and in public school you find more of it becasue.... well, I don't know why, but you seem to. But I do wonder how many cases of it is really ADHD or ADD.

***azalea*** · 01-03-2004, 11:49 PM

Yeah, I do agree with a lot of what you said, samwselvr. There are many instances of a misdiagnosis, and the child is not ADD/Hd but rather the parents need to spend more time or need more effective parenting skills.
I assure you there are home schooled children with the disorder, usually homeschooled because of the disorder (parents either disagree with the options provided by the school system in terms of special education, or the child is able to perform at home without the medication whereas at school -- a much different and more sensorily stimulating environment -- they are unable to perform without it, and the parent prefers to homeschool and not medicate; or the parent simply feels an obligation to give the child as much one on one support as possible until he or she is ready to re enter the school environment, even if not until college).

01-01-2004, 05:25 AM	#41
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	There is no scientific evidence proving that a chemical imbalance in the brain is responsible for the symptoms of ADHD or that ADHA is a "brain-based" disease. Nor do I belive that depression is a disorder in the brain. I never said that people should "just deal" with a problem, just don't take a pill for every single thing because that will not handle it. Alzheimer's is a physical problem not mental and does medication cure peolpe of their heart problems? I have not seen it happen. Though I have seen remidies that do work and if anyone's interested I'd be happy to tell you where you can get the same data. One book that comes to mind is called Clear Body Clear Mind. It talks about the use of drugs, chemicals, pesticides, toxins, food preservatives, pain pills, and other chemicals and the effects it can have on the body and how one can handle them. The post on ephedra points out what I am saying. Over the counter drugs should not be taken lightly. Some or most are very harmful. Valandil, it cheers me to hear that you have an active young child. This reminds me of some friends of ours. Thier first child was a very quiet, soft-spoken, reserved child and their second was quite the opposite. They were kind of worried about him being overly active. But I think they are great qualities to have in a person. Through correct raising and teaching that child can grow to use all that energy to producting positive results in his life. Nothing at all should be done to suppress that unique being. Daisy thanks for that link. __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com Last edited by Elvengirl : 01-01-2004 at 07:49 AM.

01-01-2004, 01:56 PM	#43
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Elvengirl, there is evidence supporting that depression is a "disorder of the brain", or psychological disorder. Since it deals with intense emotions, how could you argue that is not brain related? Most medicine doesn't cure a person, it just makes things easier to deal with. In some cases, yes, I think this is wrong, but I find it almost offensive that you would suggest people not take medicine to aid with heart problems. My stepfather would have probably had a heart attack by now if he didn't take blood pressure medicine, and my grandfather would probably die if he didnt take his heart meds, from another and more serious heart attack. Do you disagree with chemotherapy and radiation as well, even when they are the only known way to control cancer? Though I support uses of natural medicine (herbal tea, mostly) for minor aches and things like colds, I do agree with jerseydevil. Not all natural remedies work, and some are harmful if taken incorrectly. Everyone should be informed of what they're putting in their body, whether it be some type of food, an herbal remedy, or a synthetic pill. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-01-2004, 01:57 PM	#44
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Elvengirl, there is evidence supporting that depression is a "disorder of the brain", or psychological disorder. Since it deals with intense emotions, how could you argue that is not brain related? Most medicine doesn't cure a person, it just makes things easier to deal with. In some cases, yes, I think this is wrong, but I find it almost offensive that you would suggest people not take medicine to aid with heart problems. My stepfather would have probably had a heart attack by now if he didn't take blood pressure medicine, and my grandfather would probably die if he didnt take his heart meds, from another and more serious heart attack. Do you disagree with chemotherapy and radiation as well, even when they are the only known way to control cancer? edit: And please don't mention holistic medicine in this case, because the results for that are so varying it's hard to say if it actually works. And, often times, because of the diet that cancer patients are put on, they develop anemia and it is overlooked by holistic doctors. Yes, I know chemo can cause anemia, but it is carefully monitored and can be helped by (gasp!) more medication. Though I support uses of natural medicine (herbal tea, mostly) for minor aches and things like colds, I do agree with jerseydevil. Not all natural remedies work, and some are harmful if taken incorrectly. Everyone should be informed of what they're putting in their body, whether it be some type of food, an herbal remedy, or a synthetic pill. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-01-2004, 06:12 PM	#45
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	I see you didn't read the website I put up. And on what expert grounds do you stand to call them quacks? I have posted several books and references which give factual data. Here are several- This is to give more information to anyone who is interested. www.cchr.com Mad in America by Robert Whitaker Clear Body, Clear Mind No More ADHD by Dr. Mary Ann Block Dianetics "I don't think anyone is saying take a pill for everything." I think the psychs and medical doctors are, though 'everything' is a very general word. I never said that any or every natural item will be the best cure. Obviously, there are harmful natural plants in the world. And sorry but a person is not only chemicals and minerals, there is a spirit and a mind to us as well. I'm not here to argue. I am giving my views which I believe in. I do not believe that psychiatrists will handle any "mental disorder" and I am passing on the data I have to give all of you some more information. Hopefully it can help you. __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com Last edited by Elvengirl : 01-01-2004 at 06:17 PM.

01-02-2004, 10:29 AM	#47
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	JD, if you have a different opinion then fine. What's true for you is true for you. I believe what I wrote and I am passing on data to support my beliefs. I DOES help people and if it helps anyone else then that's great! __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com Last edited by Elvengirl : 05-26-2004 at 10:52 PM.

01-02-2004, 02:21 PM	#49
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	one thing that has to be considered is that even though many medications do "work" for certain conditions, it is, more often than not, not really understood why they work ritalin is a great example... its use as a treatment for ADHD was discovered almost by mistake... it was seen to be somewhat effective and became the standard for many years (since the 50s)... more recently it has been shown to have a host of side effects that may make it worse than no medication at all in many cases it has been supplemented by other drugs, but as history shows, it can take as long as 50 years before side effects are even partially understood... things get even more complicated when multiple drugs are put into the same person does this mean drugs should be avoided in a life-threatening situation? no... but ADHD is rarely, if at all, at that level on Elvengirl's statements, i still wouldn't go as far as saying "never use medicines"... but i'm close, doctors in the U.S., even good ones, have tremedous incentives from drug companies to use their products, especially the new ones... and few have the time, if any, to know each and every one of these drugs as well as they should... most people assume that their doctor is an encyclopedia of knowlege about medicine... this is not true, even among specialists i had a personal experience where my online research on a certain drug interaction was news to a specialist... and information she appreciated knowing (which shows to me that she is a good doctor) so keep all options open, do your research, and don't be afraid to question the professionals... and if they don't appreciate it, find someone else __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

01-02-2004, 02:27 PM	#50
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Children with ADHD suffer from more than just annoying behavioral problems. The inability to focus deprives them of the ability to experience and learn from life. No amount of "disipline" and "love" can change this fact. I have been dealing with an ADHD son for seven years. Withholding his medication only serves to alleviate my guilt and leaves him less able to function in the world. My wife has not worked for the last five years so that she could spend more time with him. The negative behavior people associate with ADHD is only a symtom of the difficulty in acquiring rules and processing information. When they can't participate like others they react negatively to the failure. It is only servicing one's own ideals to be "against medicating" and shows no real concern for the day to day struggle of the children who suffer from this disorder. A cure would be nice but until then this is the best option available. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

01-02-2004, 03:46 PM	#51
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Not all ADHD sufferers need medication to concentrate. In some cases, at least among those I know who have ADD/ADHD, it is possible to concentrate when they are taught certain techniques and exercises. I'm not saying in individual cases it shouldn't be used, but it seems to me that most doctors (and a lot of parents) decide to just give solve the problem with a pill. And brownjenkins is right about doctors being pushed into using new medicines. When the allergy medicine Claritin came out, I was given a prescription because they thought it was possible my moderately severe sinus problems were caused by allergies. It did nothing, but the continued to encourage it. Also, I also have an allergy to penicillin, and because of my constant sinus infections, I am often on antibiotics. I was given another cheap sulpha based drug that caused me to break out in painful and numerous hives (some covered almost my entire underwrist area), and wasn't warned that this reaction could occur. I know have to take more expensive antibiotics, and have never been informed of their side effects, but while I am on them I tend to have very bad headaches and abdominal cramps. If the doctors knew about these side effects, you think I would have been informed of them. And Elvengirl, you never answered my question? What is your stand on chemotherapy and radiation use in the case of cancer? __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-02-2004, 04:38 PM	#52
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Brownjenkins - most medicines are found by mistake. They notice a side effect that is positive in some individuals and try to enhance that side effect to help others. Rogain is an example of this, as is Viagra and many other drugs. Drugs are not clear cut and I hardly ever take drugs - except pain releaver because I suffer from migraines. Starr Polish - you can always ask the pharmacy or your doctor for the side effects list. All drugs have to have published side effects - no matter how rare they are. Why do you think on the commercials fro drugs they list all those things? As far as ADHD goes - it is true that people with mild ADHD propably don't need to be medicated - but that does not go for everyone. The drugs do help many people who have ADHD and they do serve a purpose as Cirdan stated. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-02-2004, 06:48 PM	#55
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Cirdan... my hat is off to you and your wife. As for kids who need medication and those that don't... I once substituted for a music teacher and one of the little girls in one of the kindergarten class was so out of control that I had to put her outside the classroom in order to give the rest of the class instructions for the class period. She kept peeking her head in every 60 to 90 seconds asking if she could come in yet. I told her to be patient and I'd come see her in a little bit. Once the kids had their instructions and were started I went outside the room and talked with her about how sad I was that she wasn't inside the room with us and how much I wanted her to be there with us... and I asked her what I could do to help her to sit still, sit without talking and making noises, not spin around yelling, and to keep her hands off the other children. We made a contract and I would give her a signal to remind her... she was still somewhat out of control, but so much better than before. When I talked to her teacher, I asked what was wrong with her... the teacher said she was diagnosed with ADHD but her parents refused to put her on the recommended medication. We both felt really sorry for the little girl because she really WANTED to sit still and quiet, keep her hands to herself, etc, but it was so hard for her to do so... she couldn't focus on the lesson and I could see her struggle with this. I just felt so sorry for her.

01-02-2004, 11:50 PM	#57
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Along the lines of what Cirdan was saying, I wanted to add that there's the "other" component of ADD -- the symptom of being unable to concentrate. I had a student in regular ed. that I felt probably had ADD (w/ out hyperactivity), and I could really only tell the parents to monitor it, because although many teachers do say it, they aren't legally allowed to say anything like "I think your son has ADD" because it is a medical diagnosis. But they CAN tell them what the problems are and that those happen to be symptoms of ADD, so you might want to monitor this in the next year and if it continues to affect his learning, consult your doctor. The child is not a behavior problem per se, but his mind is hardly ever on the task at hand, and thus these poor kids get in trouble for not doing the work by teachers that don't know any better, and worse, they don't learn what they're supposed to be learning. You see, they are UNABLE to focus, to attend. They can't help it, and no amount of prodding, discipline, or love at home can make them pay attention. They CAN'T. Their brain isn't working correctly somewhere. In response to the comment about children on medication not doing better (than their peers) in the long run -- of course not. They have a disability. As I said in an earlier post, the medication isn't supposed to be a cure, it's a tool to deal with the disability. We can only hope that someone will find a better tool without the side effects. But I would argue again that there's nothing that says children with the condition can't grow up and be incredibly successful despite their problem. Many do. And it all depends on what you call success, anyway, right? If they can form healthy relationships and make a place for themselves in society, then I call that successful. Incidentally, ADD/ ADHD isn't caused by a chemical imbalance (this is based on what I learned when I was teaching, more may have been learned since then, but this was what was the accepted explaination at the time -- ADD/HD remains mysterious in terms of what causes it, like autism and so many other disorders that manifest behaviorally). It is apparently a problem of blood flow in a certain part of the brain, the part dealing with attention. The reason Ritalin helps is because it's a stimulant that allows the blood vessels in the brain to expand, thereby allowing the blood flow to increase to that area, alleviating the problem. Of course the brain is so complex, mysterious, and inaccessable that attempts at treatment are educated guesses at best. I guess what the parent has to decide (and I think I might have already said this) is "Does the potential risk caused by any side effects of the medication outweigh the benefits it gives my child in terms of success academically and socially?" If the answer for the parent is "no," then they should feel no guilt in giving their child the medication, as long as the decision is revisited yearly to determine if it is still working for the child and is still needed (like I said, puberty is a good time to try and see if they're able to cope without the medication, because of course if they're able to do that, it is preferrable, as is the case with any medication. I think we all acknowledge that the preferred mode for anyone is to be on as little medication as possible, but there's no reason not to take it if it helps to ease the condition, whatever it might be).

01-03-2004, 02:08 PM	#58
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Good advice, azalea. I think there's been some finger pointing at parents that they are not giving their kid enough attention or teaching them how to behave or study properly. And there might be instances where that might be true. But I think that isn't the case in a REAL situation where the kid ACTUALLY has ADD or ADHD... like azalea and Cirdan said... it's more than meets the eye.

01-03-2004, 11:49 PM	#60
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Yeah, I do agree with a lot of what you said, samwselvr. There are many instances of a misdiagnosis, and the child is not ADD/Hd but rather the parents need to spend more time or need more effective parenting skills. I assure you there are home schooled children with the disorder, usually homeschooled because of the disorder (parents either disagree with the options provided by the school system in terms of special education, or the child is able to perform at home without the medication whereas at school -- a much different and more sensorily stimulating environment -- they are unable to perform without it, and the parent prefers to homeschool and not medicate; or the parent simply feels an obligation to give the child as much one on one support as possible until he or she is ready to re enter the school environment, even if not until college).

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