02-21-2005, 05:46 PM | #41 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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02-22-2005, 08:25 AM | #42 |
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This is weird... I wasn't able to get to the third page of this thread to see my last post. Plus - from the directory, this is shown to have 39 replies, which would be 40 posts - but when I check who posted, it totals 41 posts. And, like I said - it showed a third page, but I couldn't get to it.
It seems like this happened before to me. Were the rest of you able to get to page 3 before this? (can we even get there NOW? I'll soon find out! )
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
02-22-2005, 11:25 AM | #43 |
The Intermittent One
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i wasnt able to see yur top post at all
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02-22-2005, 12:00 PM | #44 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Nor was I. It said You had the last post but the last one I could see was Blackheart's.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-31-2012, 11:49 AM | #45 | |
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Even though the Oath was made to Isildur at the Stone of Erech before the war at the end of the Second Age - perhaps Isildur consequently made a follow-up curse as to their fate, while he had The RING in his possession. He could have done this from afar, while brooding over the losses of war at Osgiliath - or, even better, he could have made a trip back to Erech, called the leaders of the oath-breakers together and pronounced his curse on them, backed up by the power of the Ring. Since these men had formerly worshipped and served Sauron, a curse like this, in response to their failure to keep their oath, might have sealed their fates. The one laying down the curse held in his possession the Ring, which was to some extent the very embodiment of Sauron and his power.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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01-02-2013, 03:38 AM | #46 |
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On the definition of an oath being something that requires a divine witness - I don't think Tolkien ever stuck to that. Someone has already mentioned the case of the oath of Feanor, where taking the name of Eru was an 'even'
Also to the point is Tolkien's own letters, where he mentions that he wanted his legendary world to be outside of the Christian world even if he himself was a staunch believer. I believe he said something on the lines of 'Myth and fairy-story must reflect and contain parts of moral and religious truth or error, but not explicitly as in the real world.' That's one of the reasons he has the Valar, who are gods in the sense of pre-Christian mythology, but have no place in the Christian world. To me, there is then no need to see medieval practices of taking oaths - in Tolkien's world, Eru's name really seems enough to condemn them from leaving Arda. Valandil If the potency is due to the power of the Ring and a result of the previous worship and service in the name of Sauron - how would Aragorn have the power to undo such a curse, even if he held their oath fulfilled? Would it not then be Frodo, the Ring-bearer, who could undo it, or only the destruction of the Ring which could accomplish it?
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01-02-2013, 07:40 AM | #47 |
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I think the greatest part of the undoing came from the response of the oath-breakers... keeping their oath on their second chance, even after so long. It took the right time, the right person to require it of them, and the right circumstances (another fight against Sauron). Aragorn spoke their release as Isildur's Heir, but only when they had met Isildur's conditions... in a sense.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
03-13-2013, 03:25 PM | #48 | |||
Salt Miner
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Just passing through… overwhelming busy (thank Heaven!), haven’t looked in for months… can’t stay.
A few things. Númenóreans regarded their kings as priest-kings. The Biblical archetype, with which Tolkien was familiar, would be Melchizedek, king of Salem (Jerusalem), who “was a priest of God Most High” to whom Abraham made sacrifice. From Letters #156, Quote:
So let’s consider another avenue. As regards the Stone of Erech, it must indeed have been quite peculiar, of especial importance to the Númenóreans. (Valandil and I have posted elsewhere on this subject.) Tolkien described it as “a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground.” (RotK, “Passing of the Grey Company”). It was therefore 12–13 feet (3.7–4 m) in diameter, and must have been immensely heavy and unwieldy, on the order of several tons. That Elendil, Isildur, Anárion, and the Faithful Númenóreans with them should have considered it so valuable that they would haul it aboard ship – which might have been quite dangerous, since they were exiled to Rómenna, the royal harbor on the east of Númenor, with Sauron nearby in Armenelos and King’s Men watching them constantly – in place of the many other, smaller treasures they might have selected, is indicative of the great worth they attached to the stone. It could have been carved from the top of Meneltarma, for instance, since its description might indicate that it was volcanic in origin; but we should consider whether the stone was quarried and shaped in Valinor or Eldamar. This last is my personal opinion; the only supporting evidence I can cite is that Tolkien originally conceived of the Stone of Erech as one of the palantÃ*ri, which were of course from Eldamar. (HoME VIII War of the Ring, “IV Many Roads Lead Eastward (1)”) More importantly, however, the Dead Men of the Mountains had refused to fight because “they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.” (RotK, op. cit.) Sauron was a necromancer: from Morgoth’s Ring, “Laws and Customs among the Eldar”, “Of Re-Birth and Other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos”, there is a discussion of one spirit unlawfully possessing the body of another Quote:
This last seems most appropriate to me. Here is the solution I propose:
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(Now I’ve spent far more time here than I should have. Best to all!) Last edited by Alcuin : 03-13-2013 at 04:10 PM. |
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03-24-2013, 01:15 AM | #49 |
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Hello. New here. Very good discussions.
I'm not sure why there need be much resistance to the idea that the Ring, being an obvious immediate source of supernatural power rooted in cruelty, treachery, and domination, helped give Isildur's curse teeth just because he wasn't wearing it when the not-yet-Dead Men swore their oath. Spitefully cursing oathbreakers seems a very Ring-y thing to do, and, based on the text Alcuin quotes, messing with spirits was to some degree within Morgoth and Sauron's pervue, perhaps moreso because of the Dead Men's prior worship of Sauron. Interestingly, Isildur worded his curse carefully enough to keep the bonds it created tied to himself and his line rather than the Ring, and while said phrasing didn't help him personally, it did, by giving his heirs rather than the Ring's current master ownership of the curse, inadvertently help undo the Ring's own evil. This kind of dynamic may actually help explain how Sauron retained so much of his power, and the "loyalty" of the Ringwraiths, after the loss of the Ring: many of the bonds Sauron created with it may have been similarly worded or otherwise designed to keep his slaves from being free of his influence even if he could no longer wield the Ring directly. I would guess that, had the Ring been involved in the curse and were it somehow destroyed without the Dead Men first being freed, they would have been released (if perhaps slowly) from the curse after the fact, since what had been wrought with it would have then been undone. Anyway, it seems to me that the Ring's power is perfectly suited to using a once-honorable, now-broken oath as a reason after the fact to cause centuries of suffering to an entire race, and it also seems like Tolkien's worldview would allow for such an action to eventually, in a roundabout way, contribute to the Ring's own destruction. |
06-24-2013, 12:04 PM | #50 |
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It's tolkens world... I gess it's the ring...
Last edited by Earniel : 06-26-2013 at 08:34 AM. Reason: spamlink removed |
06-24-2013, 01:52 PM | #51 |
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At the time of the curse Isildur did not have a slightess idea about an existance of the Ring, and the ring was happily sitting on a finger of his rightfull owner - Sauron.
So, no. No evil ring was involved. Just ex-numenoreans themselves. They were too reluctant to acknowledge that way back during happy days upon living in Numenor they, too, have learned some ways of sorcery from the very best friend and counsellor of their king, not just the cursed black numenoreans.
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07-08-2013, 03:19 PM | #52 |
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I do not recall that it is clear exactly when Isildur cursed them, and it might well have been after the victory, when he had the ring. Recall that his path did not approach the white mountains during the war. At the sudden outbreak, he was defending Minas Ithil, and when it was lost, he went down the Anduin and by sea to Arnor, while Anarion held Osgiliath. He then marched with the Host of the last alliance from near Amon Sul in Arnor, accross the Misty Mountains, and down the Anduin vallley to the Dagorlad, never comming near the White Mountains. I believe it most likely he applied the curse, after the war, during his sojuron in Gondor after the war.
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