10-28-2004, 12:59 AM | #41 | |
Hobbit
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12-19-2004, 09:44 PM | #42 |
Sapling
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Heros of Gondolin
As I am sure you will recall, the sword taken from the Troll's cave had belonged to heroes. At any rate they were quite famous. Heroes, or those who wield famous swords are unlikely to be killed in a single battle. They probably escaped and were kill afterwards by marauding orks, from whom the trolls stole them.
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12-21-2004, 12:01 PM | #43 |
Elven Warrior
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Of Gandalfs sword Glamdring it was told by Elrond in the Hobbit that it was the sword of the king of Gondolin. Gondolin had have only one king and that was Turgon. His death in the Battle that brought his city to ruin is attested, what ever version of the story you look at.
Turgon did in the end refuse to fight and died in the Fall of his tower standing un the top of it when it was crushed. But nither for Glamdring nor for Orcrist or Stich we have any text that suggests that they were take out of Gondolin by the Elves. At the conteray we have Elronds saying in the Hobbit:"... They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. ..." Respectfully Findegil |
01-02-2005, 12:38 PM | #44 | |
Ring-smith
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They killed some travalers caring the swords!
Now you know what I'm going to say so... I'm not!
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01-13-2006, 09:46 PM | #45 | |
Hobbit
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02-19-2006, 03:54 AM | #46 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Sorry it is off-topic, but it is really curious how 2 swords (or a sword and a dagger) from Gondolin could have ended in a troll den in Rhudaur... Perhaps a high elf was killed there during the Angmar wars?
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02-19-2006, 03:56 AM | #47 | |
Elven Warrior
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02-19-2006, 04:04 AM | #48 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks for the quote, Landroval.
Some hoard... That means still that a Gondolin elf was killed in the Second or the Third age, as otherwise the weapons would have been drowned with Beleriand. I think my explanation is also plausible, as at the times of "the Hobbit" the conception of Rhudaur and the Angmar wars had not yet arisen. |
02-19-2006, 08:19 AM | #49 |
The Intermittent One
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there is one version of the forging of the rings, IIRC, that says that Celebrimbor was an elf of gondolin, and he lived in eregion in the second age, seems plausible to me that he would have swords from gondolin...
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02-19-2006, 08:44 AM | #50 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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In the Second Age Celebrimbor lived in Eregion, indeed, till he was slain by Sauron around SA 1695. So whatever may have been saved from Ost-in Edil could have found ist way to Moria nearby.
But Celebrimbor was not from Gondolin, but from Nargothrond. He was a son of Curufin, son of Feanor, who decided to stay with Orodreth. Quote:
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02-19-2006, 08:48 AM | #51 |
The Intermittent One
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yes but there was never only one versionof accounts in tolkien's works, was there? i am sure there is one version somehwere (UT?) that states that celebrimbor came from gondolin (greatest smith of gondolin, IIRC), but even if he didn't he might have had weaponry etc from the hidden city
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02-19-2006, 08:53 AM | #52 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Bravo, Last Child!
I checked the UT and found that you were right- there was an earlier version! Quote:
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02-19-2006, 09:19 AM | #53 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I wonder where the survivors of Gondolin might have ended up in the Second and the Thitd Age.
Glorfindel made it to Imladris, but he was atypical, as he passed via Mandos. Is it said anywhere where was Erestor from? Or Gildor? I think, given the Mirdain's love for crafts, some elves from Gondolin may have settled in Eregion, and as the survivors of Eregon were rescued by Elrond, they naturally came to live in Imladris. So one of them may have been slain later on (TA 1356-1400 or 1974-75?) in Rhudaur... |
02-19-2006, 09:23 AM | #54 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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IIRC correctly Gildor was from Nargothrond, or somewhere else where Finarfin's children settled but I'll get a quote in a bit.
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02-19-2006, 09:25 AM | #55 |
The Intermittent One
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i expect most of those that remained in ME after Beleriand was sunk ended up either with Cirdan & Gil-Galad at the Havens, or with Celebrimbor in Eregion, and so eventually ending up with Galadriel in Lorien, Elrond in Imladris or with Cirdan at the Havens
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04-24-2016, 10:46 AM | #56 | |
Elven Warrior
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But I don't recall that any version of The Fall of Gondolin was published in Tolkien's lifetime... ... in the spring of 1920 JRRT read a version of the tale to an Essay Club ( Exeter college), but for myself I don't consider that equivalent to publication -- not that Findegil does necessarily, but I can't find any reference to this version, or any other, being published while Tolkien was alive. Anyone? |
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05-06-2016, 07:23 AM | #57 |
Sapling
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Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.
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05-06-2016, 07:45 AM | #58 | |
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05-06-2016, 07:51 AM | #59 | |
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05-14-2016, 08:48 AM | #60 | |
Elven Warrior
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Tolkien wrote -- and only in the very late text in which he considered the case of Glorfindel -- that the name Glorfindel itself should not be repeated... but that said, to my mind his reasoning in this text (again, which was written very late and never published by the author in any case, which I think means that he should feel no great pressure to stand by it) doesn't seem all that compelling to me. Anyway, even if we accept JRRT's reasoning there, generally speaking Elves can have the same name. In the same late text JRRT notes an example that could be repeated, Galdor, and in my opinion the The Shibboleth of Feanor seems to suggest that a number of Elves named their children Argon, in honour of Arakano. Earlier (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien noted that certain Elves tried to keep the specific type of name known as the "Chosen-name" (which is suggested to represent a Noldorin custom) unique, but that as time went on, even the Chosen-name could be repeated [note: Christopher Tolkien wondered if this type of Chosen-name, chosen by Elf-children after their lámatyáve had kicked in, was retained in later years, as the admittedly more brief discussion of Elven-naming in The Shibboleth of Feanor does not mention it]. Again that was only one kind of name in any event. As a side note: even earlier than the publication of The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Christopher Tolkien explained what his father had decided about Glorfindel, although yes, the actual Glorfindel essays (one of them is incomplete) were not published until HME 12... ... or The Peoples of Middle-Earth Edit: interestingly, according to late texts Nerdanel named her last two sons Ambarussa, although Feanor desired that this should not be so, and admittedly this could be an arguably unique scenario. Last edited by Galin : 05-14-2016 at 09:00 AM. |
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