11-14-2002, 05:20 PM | #41 |
Head Hollara
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That's where it could get confusing.
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11-14-2002, 06:41 PM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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I'd say it gets confusing far before that, and complicated as well.
My standings on both issues are probably obvious. Against abortion and gun control.
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11-14-2002, 07:03 PM | #43 |
the Shrike
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I still wouldn't say that it was the victim's fault that she got raped. Even if she was careless about her safety. It's a little bit different being careless and cutting yourself with a knife, and being careless and getting raped. It is NEVER the victim's fault.
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11-14-2002, 07:07 PM | #44 | |
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11-14-2002, 07:11 PM | #45 | |
Empress of the Writewraiths
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I certainly agree that it is not the mother's fault, but if the fetus is a person, then he or she is be a citizen of some country, with all the rights that bestows (At least in most countries. There might be some that have a stricter definition of citizen than simply "person"). The argument I am about to make applies only in the USA. So, everyone: if things are different in your country you are free to say so. In the US, once a child is born, it is illegal for women to throw their babies away (sometimes literally!) or otherwise murder them. Clearly the baby's right to not be murdered is seen as more important than the mother's right to rid herself of an unwanted child, though the mother may of course put her child up for adoption. There have been cases of teens who didn't know they were pregnant until their baby was born, then killed their child. If the mothers were found out, they were prosecuted for the murder of the baby! Whether the child was a product of rape or not no longer mattered. Therefore, if person born in the US or having US parents = US citizen, and unborn babies are considered persons, abortion should be illegal. Obviously if you believe that a fetus is not a person things are different. |
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11-14-2002, 07:14 PM | #46 | |
Empress of the Writewraiths
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Just out of curiousity, where are you from? |
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11-14-2002, 07:21 PM | #47 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Yeah, no-one ever asks to be raped. God, do people really believe that?
I don't get how being raped makes a difference. Presumably, if abortion is murder, it's murder. We're all skirting around the issue, which is WHEN a foetus becomes a person. Please tick the box: [] when it's just jizz [] when it's fertilised [] when it's started dividing [] when it's implanted [] when it's differentiated a nervous system [] when it's reached some embryologically sensible developmental milestone to be decided after appropriate consultation with a large and impressive committee of men in white coats and long probes [] when it's capable of sustaining its life outside the womb [] when it's born [] when it's able to buy DVDs I reckon most folk would go for somewhere between 4th and 7th. I include the last one because there are some human rights you DON'T have until you reach the legal age of majority. You can't legally make contracts, for example, below this age. So, the point is, we can grow into rights. |
11-14-2002, 07:28 PM | #48 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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[X] when it's differentiated a nervous system
Or sometime between the 2nd and 3rd trimester.
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11-14-2002, 07:38 PM | #49 | |
Empress of the Writewraiths
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The rights that we have to grow into are usually stated, though, aren't they? In almost all cases, I am opposed to abortion (there might be a FEW specific exceptions, but I'd have to know the details of the case), but I would be willing to accept 5, or possibly even 6 ("men in white coats") as a reasonable scientific determination of when personhood is reached. |
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11-14-2002, 07:49 PM | #50 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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I don't think the baby is a person until it's born-though late term abortions make me feel uncomfortable. So abortions are good as long as they're regulated. Banning abortions after all causes more problems than it solves anyways. It kills mothers and it makes both people suffer.
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11-14-2002, 09:02 PM | #51 | |
Elven Warrior
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It's a person as soon as
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11-14-2002, 10:48 PM | #52 | |||||
Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages
Join Date: Nov 2001
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"When a woman exercises her right to control her own body in total disregard of the body of another human being, it is called abortion. When a man acts out of the same philosopry, it is called rape"
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Regarding rape with thanks to Randy Alcorn: Only 3 percent of rape victims get pregnant. If treated fast enough, the sperm can be stopped from fertalizing the egg and creating a human being. RAPE IS NEVER THE FAULT OF THE CHILD conceived; the guilty part, not an innocent party, should be punished!!! "When a woman exercises her right to control her own body in total disregard of the body of another human being, it is called abortion. When a man acts out of the same philosopry, it is called rape"!!!!! -- I'm here to answer any questions anyone has on abortion, and I'm willing to argue this more than the existance of God. Please just hear me out! |
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11-14-2002, 10:55 PM | #53 |
Viggoholic
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I would just like to make some points:
*Any person who thinks that someone who is raped is thier own fault has serious mental problems. *I believe that a fetus becomes a person when the brain is formed, so I am pro-abortion until that point. I think the brain is developed after the 2nd month, so an abortion up to 2 months of conception is Ok, IMHO. *If you think abortion is murder, then so is euthanasia and capital punishment.
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11-14-2002, 11:45 PM | #54 | |
the Shrike
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11-14-2002, 11:46 PM | #55 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-14-2002, 11:49 PM | #56 |
The Buddy Rabbit
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"So it's ok to kill people if they are undesired? Is that what you're saying?"
No. IMO a foetus does not become a "life" until it is capable of living outside of the mothers body. If you disagree with that, fine. I've seen dozens of documentary's regarding orphans, babies abandoned for numerousl reasons........a particular documentary about baby girls left in orphanges, and killed by the Chinese state was horrific. Disabled (both mentally and physically) and heathy children dumped into Romanian orphanages and left to rot will be an image that stays with me for the rest of life. That was proof enough to me that abortion should be an option. Documentaries from the UK also. Children abandoned. Hundreds abandoned every year. In telephone boxes, on hospital doorsteps, in railway stations. Abandoned for many different reasons......the babies of drug addicts, teenagers terrified to tell there parents (sometimes not even teenagers. One 11yr old girl delivered her baby herself in a public toilet, they found the baby dead. The girl was found 3 days later, dead in a back-street in London from massive heamorridging)........homeless people often abandon babies, after all, how could they care for them? A few other scenarios- A woman in her 50's falls pregnant even tho' she was sterlized years earlier........the doctor tells her that to carry the child may kill both her and the baby. A woman lives with an alcoholic, every day he kicks the living crap out of her but she doesn't have the guts/will to leave him........she misses a period.....and discovers she is pregnant she daren't leave her husband but she doesn't want her children to go through this life. A teenage prostitute uses contraception, it fails.........she knows that if she cannot work her pimp will kill her. Until worldwide humanity automatically become good parents in the advent of someone becoming pregnant then I feel the choice should be available. Millions of families around the world would not even support their children if they were about to become parents, a good friend of mine, Sahir$% is now massively brain damaged because she took an overdose after falling pregnant (she is Hindu and was expected to marry at 18) should she have been more careful regarding becoming pregnant? Yes. Should she have been so terrified of telling her parents that she was pregnant that she tried to kill herself. No..........Should she have been able to have seen her Dr, arrange an abortion and after the abortion (however long it may have taken her to come to terms with the mental implications of the abortion) she could have enjoyed a full, healthy and hopefully happy life without all this stigma and shame that many people feel about this perfectly legal operation thrust upon her..........IMO yes. Should their be a choice.........yes. Last edited by Coney : 11-15-2002 at 12:16 AM. |
11-15-2002, 12:10 AM | #57 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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New Jersey's parental notification law regarding abortions is sort of weird. I don't know if any other states have this law written like this or not.
A parent must be informed that their child is planning on getting an abortion. The doctor can tell them or who ever - but they need to be told. If the parent fears for her safety - she can go before a judge to have it waived. The parent can not prevent the abortion though if the teenager wants it. I sort of have a problem with this - and yet understand it to. The problem is that it is a major procedure and things can go wrong. Quote:
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11-15-2002, 12:18 AM | #58 | |
Empress of the Writewraiths
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11-15-2002, 12:31 AM | #59 | |
Viggoholic
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11-15-2002, 12:39 AM | #60 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Again - I will state that I support abortion (with restrictions), capital punsihment and euthanasia.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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