Iraqis Forgive Americans

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - that really compares to the TORTURE - physical abuse and death that was done to the American POWs.

Yours were tortured. Yay. So were theirs (the Iraqis). What is it exactly that makes your blood any better...

Something about two wrongs....springs to mind.....

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's funny how Britain seems to still try to stand up as the moral superior - considering IT'S colonial and ruthless history.

Evidently you have trouble forgiving, don't you?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan

What I said was that 'nations' can forgive over time. It could take hundreds of years. Israel vs Palastine = Isralites vs Philistines? These people hate their enemies forever, and I dont see how you think that abusing their people in captivity will warrant their forgiveness. (oh yes, I can hit the button as well.)

The conflict here is only 80 years old, and there can be no forgiveness before the conflict is over.
And who said we hate the Palestinians? We only hate the terrorists in them.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
The conflict here is only 80 years old, and there can be no forgiveness before the conflict is over.
And who said we hate the Palestinians? We only hate the terrorists in them.

Its a terrible problem, the middle east. Just like the Balkans and Kashmir. There arn't real answers.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Rtb, I wasn't saying that you hate Palestine. I dont really know you, so I dont know what you feel.

I do know that your country and palestine have been fighting for ages, with no end in sight. Thats a nother matter, and one upon which I am sure you shall know more that I.

The point is forgiveness. You say it yourself, there can be no forgiveness. Its the same in Northern Ireland. Theres so much to hate the enemy for, you cannot comprehend forgiveness until you have won. If you win.

[Coney II]

Originally posted by Radagast
Evidently you have trouble forgiving, don't you?

Wait till you see all his "damn British" posts on July 4th (or do a search for old thread.......it'll give ya an idea of his mindframe towards us.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - that really compares to the TORTURE - physical abuse and death that was done to the American POWs.

You're missing the point, the underlying principle is that we were no better for imprisoning Japanese Americans CIVILIANS than Hitler or Stalin was for the torture and death of millions of people. One great injustice does not justify another. And I wasn't comparing the interment camps to the concentration and labor camps, I was simply stating that America wasn't innocent either.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
I do know that your country and palestine have been fighting for ages, with no end in sight. Thats a nother matter, and one upon which I am sure you shall know more that I.

The point is forgiveness. You say it yourself, there can be no forgiveness. Its the same in Northern Ireland. Theres so much to hate the enemy for, you cannot comprehend forgiveness until you have won. If you win.

Fighting is cyclical. So is hate. But hate tends to fade quickly because we live short lives. The fact of the matter is the middle east conflict is not just an 80 year old conflict. People have been hostile to each other in that ancient land since the first walls of Jericho were put up in the mists of the neolithic (and probably before that even).

But humans are resilient if not too stubborn for their own good. This conflict will fade with time. And another will replace it eventually. Its how things work with us.

[azalea]

I tried to post this yesterday, but was kicked off. <------

A general philosophical point on the nature of forgiveness:

It is my belief that it is only the individual involved that can offer forgiveness. Thus, the Iraqi people have no right to offer their forgiveness, it is the abused themselves that would do that, and the chief mourners of those who were killed.

A spokesman for the US government can offer an apology to the Iraqi government regarding the abuse, since the government bears responsibility being in charge of those who were running the prison. A spokesman for the Iraqi government can say we as a government forgive you for your failure of leadership in this particular instance, since at this point the US is in charge of the prison. But this vague "Iraqis forgive US" is too general.
The citizens on both sides aren't in a position to apologize or forgive, IMO. It's the individuals who did it that need to ask forgiveness, and the individuals who were victimized that may forgive. Otherwise, the words are a hollow formality.

[Valandil]

Kinda makes you almost think this thread was just a device to allow continuation of the previously closed thread, huh? almost...

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by Valandil
Kinda makes you almost think this thread was just a device to allow continuation of the previously closed thread, huh? almost...

It's toned down a bit. But the usual chain-pulling and knee jerking are still here -- along with some excellent and well-considered points. This is a very good thread and will continue to be as long as everybody plays nicely -- even when they agree to disagree.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
"SO" - you still didn't do it out of forgiveness, like your post implies, and you know it. You did it for political reasons, not forgiveness, which is exactly what I said.

I didn't say that it was done out of forgiveness - but it required forgiveness to give the billions to germany and Europe and to continue being allies for the last 50 years.

The entire region hates America, and its reasons are far based back in history. RtB hit the nail on the head, with Palastine being the biggest problem. The Arabs still blame America for supporting Israel, whom they see as invaders. They dont forget. So the Iraqi people are not going to forget the abuses of their helpless, unarmed prisoners in captivity. Are they?

Hmmm - mayvbe it would help if you looked at the history of the middle east and the role EUROPE played and how little the US has actually played in it's history. Europe - particularly britain - created the modern Middle East - from Israel and the Palestinian situation to the Indian and Pakistani situation,to Saudi Arabia and Iraq. The whole of Middle East is a result of Britains actions during World War I and beyond. The US has only recently gotten involved there. And yeah - we support Israel - if we didn't they would be wiped off the face of the earth - but I guess you wouldn't really care about that.

Therefore, only those who were actually killed 9/11, or their families, should hate those responsible. After all, the planes didn't hit jersey, did they?

No - as far as I kno wthe Isle of jersey was not hit by any planes. Oh - I know - you mean NEW Jersey. let me give you a bit of a lesson - the Twin Towers were OWNED by the Port Authority of New York and NEW JERSEY. 1/3 of the people killed in the towers - were New JERSEYANS. We had funerals in my area for 6 months and longer here.

Oh - and Todd Beamer - the person who said "Let's Roll" lived only 2 miles from me.

What I said was that 'nations' can forgive over time. It could take hundreds of years. Israel vs Palastine = Isralites vs Philistines? These people hate their enemies forever, and I dont see how you think that abusing their people in captivity will warrant their forgiveness. (oh yes, I can hit the button as well.)

How do you know they hate their enemies forever? Are you saying they are animals with no thinking abilities? There are a lot of things going on in Iraq - a lot of Iraqis are working closely with Americans. You lump everyone as Iraqis - when many of the people attacking us in Iraqi are NOT Iraqis.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Yours were tortured. Yay. So were theirs (the Iraqis). What is it exactly that makes your blood any better...

Something about two wrongs....springs to mind.....

I didn't say it was right for what THOSE soldiers did. Please show me were I defended their actions.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Evidently you have trouble forgiving, don't you?

No - I'm just pointing out that if everyone wants to say that the Iraqis will not forgive us - then it would seem logical that britain and Europe in general with it's history would be hated the world over.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney II
Wait till you see all his "damn British" posts on July 4th (or do a search for old thread.......it'll give ya an idea of his mindframe towards us.

Please show me where I ever said the "damn british" in the 4th of July posts - because I know I have never said that in there. I didn't study British history all those years because I hated Britain - I actually loved Britain and Istilll like Britain and admire it's history and past greatness - I simply have a problem with people constantly pointing the finger at the US for all the problems in the world. Don't even start saying that I say things which aren't there.

Here is a sample of the English History Books I have...

The Princes in the Tower
Richard the Thrid
The Hundred Years War
The Wars of the Roses
Richard III and the Princes in the Tower
The Autobiography of Henry VIII
Elizabeth I
Henry II
The Conquering Family
The Magnificent Century
The Three Edwards
The Last Plantagenents

I'm wondering - how many books on American history do you have? How much have you studied American History. You might want to think before you accuse someone of hating you. Especially since I never said the "damn British"

BTW - I just did a search for the phrase "damn british" with my name and in the whole history of Entmoot it came up with only ONE thread beside this one - "Constitution Day". The thread was in celebration of Norway's Constitution Day and I only said it jokingly because Norway was once controlled by Sweden. Hardly the "all his "damn British" posts on July 4th" you seem to think.

Here....

Well - I'll have to look at the website and see then. I guess you only gave me half the story. It took us about 10 years to kick out the damn British, hopefully the Norwegians will be successful against the Swedes soon.

As I said - hardly the hatred you try to indicate against the British.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

As I said - hardly the hatred you try to indicate against the British.

The boy's right

[Coney II]

Originally posted by Radagast
The boy's right

Of course he is, I just enjoy winding him up

btw JD, you did miss one (although admitedly it was "damned English" not damned british) in the happy independance day thread I started....second or third page I think it was

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney II
Of course he is, I just enjoy winding him up

Oh - you know that's an out and out lie. So don't even play the innocent as if you are just always joking around.

btw JD, you did miss one (although admitedly it was "damned English" not damned british) in the happy independance day thread I started....second or third page I think it was

Yeah - and here is the context it was said in...

You just have to kick the damn English out. BoP seems to want the same thing.

Thanks to everyone who has wished us a Happy 4th of July.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - funny how we forgave Japan AND Germany for the countless abuses against our soldiers during World War II. We went so far as to even rfebuild their countries. We didn't blame the abuses of our soldiers on all the people of those countries. During World War II - Hitler was starving our soldiers - particularly the airmen who were captured after the bombing of Dresden.

Over 400,000 American soldiers died during World War II - becasuse of Germany and Japan. It's even a higher number if you add in the deaths of American soldiers because of Germany in World War I.

They will forgive us - because it wasn't America who did it - it was a few Americans. As time goes on - they will see this - once there is security in their country and so forth.

What is a war criminal? Was not war itself a crime against God and humanity, and, therefore, were not all those who sanctioned, engineered,and conducted wars, war criminals? War criminals are not confined to the Axis Powers alone.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
What is a war criminal? Was not war itself a crime against God and humanity, and, therefore, were not all those who sanctioned, engineered,and conducted wars, war criminals? War criminals are not confined to the Axis Powers alone.

Well for one thing - war is not a crime in itself. Also - to consider it a crime against god - I guess one would have to believe in god.

As for your comment indicating that the Allies were just as much in the wrong in going to war against the Axis powers - I suppose the execution of millions of innocent people, the destruction and bombing of NUMEROUS countries by Japan and Germany was just fine with you - as long as we didn't get involved. Sometimes war is necessary - it would be nice if it wasn't - but sometimes it is. To believe otherwise is very naive and wishful thinking.