10-25-2004, 05:04 PM | #41 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
The insistence in the face of the data about the NATURE of marriage despite OVERWHELMING evidence from history, culture, and science ought to alert perceptive persons that the real issue is not a definition of marriage but the intent to change by a few.
Really now, if enough people complain that day and night are not defined by data should we change them too? After all, we already have Daylight Savings Time as a law? Doesn't that tell us that day/night distinctions are open to interpretation and change? Shouldn't the sad cases of porphyria be cause to change the definitions? Where precisely and on what grounds would this line of argument ever be nonapplicable?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-25-2004, 05:04 PM | #42 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Yeah, I think I'll sign off this thread - too many other ones going on right now!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-25-2004, 05:10 PM | #43 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Really, inked, I enjoy your vocabulary-expanding use of words, but when they're medical terms, could you please provide a parenthetical definition for us? Or else I'll start talking radar to you ... (gain, squawk, Mode 4, bins, gross filters, PD, etc.)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-25-2004 at 05:11 PM. |
|
10-25-2004, 05:14 PM | #44 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
10-25-2004, 05:15 PM | #45 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Sorry, but that disease was on some building show my better half watches just last week and they characterized it as "allergic to sunshine". That's not exact, but what the hey. And, if its on TV everyone understands, Right!!!!
Pardon.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-25-2004, 05:36 PM | #46 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Okay. Actually, there is such a disease. A South African family moved to Prince Rupert BC (the city with the least sunshine in the world because of that). No worries.
My previous post still stands though.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
10-25-2004, 06:32 PM | #47 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Please forgive me if this is a dopey comment, as I am currently writing an extremely boring paper, and my brain isn't quite up to normal functioning speed, but we're talking about the HISTORY of marriage? The LONG history? As in using this as a basis for providing the empiracle evidence for the so-called "norm" of marriage? How can we use this as an adequate basis of evidence, when the "history" of homo-sapiens is decidedly short compared to the 'existence' of homo-sapiens, within which there are no records to validate marriage? Or, to go back further, beyond homo-sapiens?
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
10-25-2004, 06:33 PM | #48 | ||
The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
Posts: 1,685
|
Quote:
you can also put relationships in your neat little argument instead of marriage does this mean that homosexuals cant take place in a relationship? Im sure one of Socrates arguments in the Gorgias about morality can be used here, ill mull it over a little Quote:
now a couple of questions, someone asked this earlier but i didnt really see any answer. Inked you stated that marriage is for the purpose of procreation, and a few others put to start a family etc, well this certainly excludes homosexual couples (without adoption of course) but it also leaves out people who want a hetero marriage who are sterile for one reason or another and have the same chance of making a baby homosexuals have. Should they be allowed to marry? Also although it may seem obvious to some people (not too me though ) for the people who are against homosexuals marrying, what consequences are you afraid of????????????
__________________
Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
||
10-25-2004, 06:54 PM | #49 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
This is Brownie's sig:
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
10-25-2004, 09:06 PM | #50 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Nurvi and Millane - good points about the personal aspect of this topic. We tend to get lost sometimes in the discussion side of things (which is also vitally important, IMO, unless you want things to be decided randomly or un-thought-out-fully), but lose track of the human side.
Just to reiterate what I've said many, many times - I think homosexuals are people just like anyone else. I think they're just as valuable and important as anyone else. Some are nice, some aren't, some are intelligent, some aren't, some have brown hair, some don't - just like everyone else. However, since I believe that to ACT on homosexual tendencies is VERY harmful, it would be very UNLOVING on my part to not say so, when it's brought up in conversations like this. It would be a failure of love on my part to not share my beliefs on this issue. In fact, I know I'll take a lot of flack for my beliefs here! I would want any of you guys to share your beliefs about something I'm doing that you think is harmful, while still respecting my choices and beliefs. I act the same way towards you guys that I wish you would act towards me. And believe me, I've had people tell me that my Christian beliefs are harmful! AND I APPRECIATE THEIR HEART BEHIND THEIR MESSAGE! even tho I disagree with them. And I think this should probably move over to the homosexual thread, where I made a coupla posts on the last few pages that addressed all the questions on this thread, if anyone's interested
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-25-2004, 09:11 PM | #51 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-25-2004 at 09:12 PM. |
|
10-25-2004, 09:23 PM | #52 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
||
10-25-2004, 09:51 PM | #53 | ||
The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
Posts: 1,685
|
Quote:
Quote:
sorry i didnt mean it to sound like anyone believed homosexuals werent human it was more to question Inkeds methodology as to why homosexual marriage was not marriage.
__________________
Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
||
10-25-2004, 09:56 PM | #54 | |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
|
Quote:
But seriously, we're not really talking about homosexuality here, are we? I want to know more about various marriage customs and traditions (no, not like exchanging rings and stuff. Well, maybe) past and present, and to examine as best as possible what exactly marriage is. I should stop playing so much PS2 or I'll get behind on my 'mooting. I have to get away from the 'moot or I'll never finish that game before I have to return it. I should just stop sleeping. Last edited by katya : 10-25-2004 at 09:56 PM. Reason: spelling |
|
10-25-2004, 11:16 PM | #55 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'll re-look at your post tomorrow and respond a little better - it's time to read to the kids and put them to bed.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2004 at 01:53 AM. |
||
10-25-2004, 11:39 PM | #56 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Hey, Troops,
Lots of allegations flying around that are emotion based and without any evidentiary basis. First, Nurv suggested sociological and anthropological data as a means of identifying marriage. I followed that with the observation that no one has refuted that the data indicate human wide definition of marriage as between genders despite variation in mode of marriage. Can't help the data doesn't match allowing same gender marriage as a normative state for humanity as far as we know. It's just the data. If one argues that the data from genetics (which is nonexistent though widely assumed to be evidentiary and to utilize the same opens the door for the same basis of spirituality) and draws conclusions based on that, I am not maligning anyone when I do the same. The real motive behind changing the definition of marriage for the thread discussion has been admitted however: "When you're talking about people with feelings and rights instead of the Sun." So now that we have converted to an emotion based argument and discarded the data based one, I'm hung out to dry because I pointed out the facts of human experience broadly speaking. No one's refuted the fact. I don't think emotion based argument will answer to data. It is quite apparent that it doesn't want to in regard to the institution of marriage. So that's the end of the line. Now to address the lack of reproduction brought up by someone (sorry I can't recall whom). The accident of failure to reproduce in a given marriage does not negate that the purpose of marriage is ensure the procreation of babies. It is an intention of marriage not fulfilled due to a multitude of possible causes. It actually affects about 10% of couples choosing to attempt conception. That components absence does not invalidate the other purposes of marriage in social terms. We have high tech modes of attempting correction, but check out history for alternative modes (surrogate children, surrogate parenting, adoption, etc). In today's world, some couples elect not to have children but still have the marriage. So marriage is more than simple provision for children in the begetting or rearing. Notice too the response of individuals with porphyria described. The world did not adjust the definition of day and night to suit them. They adapted to the dictates of their situation. This is analogous to civil unions for homosexuals with regard to the legal benefits. But day is not turned to night in the culture. Same sex individuals are not "married". They may be committed etc, but it is not what humanity has termed marriage based on evidence. Did I miss any points that wanted answering?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-25-2004, 11:47 PM | #57 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
And that was a bit of a deviation from my earlier point that we can't realistically postulate the "normal" marriage for homo-sapiens based on a small time-slice...
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
|
10-25-2004, 11:56 PM | #58 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
BoP, produce the evidence for marriage being between the same-sex even in the little slice of history we know about. I know it gets buggy, but if you want to argue data, you can't selectively ignore the elephant in the anthill when you're trying to find the worker with a red dot on it, now can you?
edited for typo
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-25-2004 at 11:58 PM. |
10-26-2004, 12:00 AM | #59 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Who said I was arguing for same-sex marriages? I was arguing against the nuclear-family basis. ::shrug:: I'm more for the extended family argument myself. Although I'm certainly not arguing against the same-sex liaisons cos that would be silly.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
10-26-2004, 01:20 AM | #60 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2004 at 01:32 AM. |
||||||||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Homosexual marriage II | klatukatt | General Messages | 736 | 05-15-2013 01:15 PM |
Homosexual marriage | Rían | General Messages | 999 | 12-06-2006 04:46 PM |
The Marriage of Mac and PC? | Rían | General Messages | 9 | 04-21-2006 04:22 AM |
Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage | Telcontar_Dunedain | The Silmarillion | 72 | 01-17-2005 05:33 PM |
Women, last names and marriage... | afro-elf | General Messages | 55 | 01-09-2003 01:37 AM |