09-25-2002, 08:30 AM | #41 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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An award doesn't make one great. All I have to think is 'Titanic' and... well you catch my drift...
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09-25-2002, 08:55 AM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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You discount any significance to academy award nominations yet profess to be objective?!?!?!?!? Ooooooooooookay.
You were the one using words like "corny" and "generic." All I said was that your view wasn't shared by the vast majority of movie-goers and film critics. I guess it's hard for some Tolkienites to share their ivory towers with the unwashed masses. |
09-25-2002, 01:43 PM | #43 | |
im quite stupid
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09-25-2002, 01:44 PM | #44 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Objective? Why would I want to be that? By nature an opinion is subjective so it would be pointless to try to have an objective opinion. The movie did pander to a lower common denominator and no one can objectively argue against that. But that is one of the director's responsibilities; to generate revenue. This movie was not meant to be a purely artistic endevour even though it has a great deal of artistic aspects. The music was very good in some places and in others it stuck out like a sore thumb; it was uneven as most soundtracks are. Academy awards are political in nature,; usually going to the most popular movie or most neglected artist. BoP is right, they usually win one for being denied for the one they should have won.
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09-25-2002, 02:50 PM | #45 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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*eyes Black Breathalizer suspiciously* You're not by any chance my sister, are you? She's got ideas like that, she makes purist sound like a bad thing.
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09-25-2002, 03:04 PM | #46 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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"You discount any significance to academy award nominations yet profess to be objective?!?!?!?!?"
The Academy Awards in themselves are entirely subjective, and it does not hold syllogisitcally that an objective viewpoint is improved empirically by the inclusion of subjective criteriae. "You were the one using words like 'corny' and 'generic.' All I said was that your view wasn't shared by the vast majority of movie-goers and film critics." And if a viewpoint is not shared by a majority of any sampled population, is that uncommon viewpoint inherently invalid due to the prevailing beliefs which express the majority position? "I guess it's hard for some Tolkienites to share their ivory towers with the unwashed masses." You may have a valid point with this statement, but you simply have launched your assault at the wrong person. BoP has consistently made her points she feels the film fails on, and though I do not agree with her assessment, she has never struck me as some Tolkien snob who doesn't want the "unwashed masses" to enjoy the world of the Master. She has presented valid arguments supporting her detraction to Jackson's interpretation, and apparently thinks that the film could have been greatly improved upon. It's her opinion, and for her, it is valid, and she ain't doing it just to keep the hoi-polloi out of her exclusive club. And, who in the WORLD said we are supposed to be engaging in objectivity here? It IS a forum discussing a FILM, and it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to review and analyze film in a totally and unpolluted objective manner. Love of one film or another is exclusively a SUBJECTIVE matter the moment a scintilla of story line, artwork, characterization, score, faithfullness to source material, or acting are discussed. Did not little Smeagol get his knuckles rapped for presuming, in his hubris, to "teach his grandmother to suck eggs"?
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
09-25-2002, 04:58 PM | #47 | |||
the Shrike
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My advice to you? Stop taking people's differing opinions so personally. I have stated my opinions on this film, probably to the extent that people here are sick of me harping about them. But they are still my opinions, and I have as much right to them without being flamed, as you do. One last thing: thanks Brop, Cirdan, Sween, and Earniel.
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09-25-2002, 07:57 PM | #48 |
Elf Lord
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I don't take any of this personally, BeardofPants. I simply refuse to let your whiney criticisms go unchallenged. If you have a right to post them, then you should be prepared to defend them. It's interesting how when someone tries to actually debate you purists on the merits of the movie, you hide behind, "gulp, uh...gee, I'm entitled to my subjective opinion."
I apologize for saying the VAST majority of movie-goers and critics loved the movie. It's true it's ONLY the fifth highest grossing film in the history of world cinema. And it's also true that for every twenty critics who hailed the movie as a modern-day classic, you could always find one critic around who shared your views. But as Gandalf would say, "I'm not trying to hurt you...I'm trying to help you." There is a cure for Tolkienpuritanitis. I am happy to help lead you and your faithful companions to the light, BeardofPants. There is still time. Peace. =) |
09-25-2002, 07:58 PM | #49 |
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I think the real problem with comparing the movie and the book is that unlike most translations Middle Earth is in some ways far more concrete then say Shakespere. Both are great literature in different ways, but Middle Earth is supposed to have internal rules, concrete in some sense that a movie by definition must ignore to be successful on any level. Therefore saying that purists hate the movie because it is impure is wrong. Most don't hate the movie. Some dislike how it tries to claim its vision of Middle Earth as THE vision of Middle Earth. Jackson has never claimed this, not to my knowledge, but its still irksome.
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09-25-2002, 08:51 PM | #50 | |
the Shrike
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I'll say it again: FOTR is not PJ's best work, IMO. For me it is not so much "whine whine he left out Tom, he did this, he did that, blah blah, Arwen, hate, hate, etc." It's more that it didn't work for me as a movie for a variety of reasons. It left me cold. Why? Mainly, I guess, because of the plumped up action: besides which, if you took away the label of LOTR, then it could just about fit in with any other fantasy/action movie. It is this point that makes me say that I find the movie generic. There is no sense of wonder, no sense of distances travelled, no sense of being transported to another time/place. (Okay, since I actually live in New Zealand...) Finally, I don't consider myself a purist. Not that I think that's a bad thing. Granted, I can be pedantic sometimes, but not a purist. In terms of Tolkien lore, I'm still a beginner. I understand that there is still much to learn. So, please, refrain from calling me a purist 'til I've at least finished HoME.
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09-25-2002, 11:01 PM | #51 |
Elf Lord
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Okay, let's try this out:
"plumped up movie action"..."if you took away the label of LOTR, then it could just about fit in with any other fantasy/action movie." Okay, let's check out these statements by analyzing the movie's major action set pieces: PJ gave us Weathertop = okay, Tolkien gave us Weathertop. PJ gives us a flight to the ford chase = hmmm, Tolkien gave us a flight to the ford chase. PJ gives us the battle at Balin's tomb = okay, Tolkien gave us the battle at Balin's tomb. PJ gave us Gandalf vs. the Balrog = Tolkien gave us the same duel. PJ gave us the Orc attack at the end of FOTR = Tolkien gave us the same Orc attack at the beginning of TTT Obviously, I'm missing something here. No wait! I've got it. I'll bet that ringwraith chasing Frodo to the brandywine ferry was the big difference, right??? Or was it the crashing stairs in Moria? Or the sword swipe by the ringwraith in the Shire? I'm sure it was one of those plumped up action scenes that ruined it for you. |
09-26-2002, 01:48 AM | #52 | ||||||
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09-26-2002, 01:53 AM | #53 | ||||||
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What was trimmed to make way for the action scenes: The friendship/conspiracy. The “proof” of Aragorn at Bree. The shortening of the Lothlorien scenes – although the extended DVD should fix this. No sense of the monotony of the journey… from Rivendell through to Hollin, etc. The reduction of the Rivendell scenes – no real sense of time passed waiting for the scouts. The loss of Cerin Amroth – again to be fixed in the extended DVD. The reduction of the hobbit POV – shifts instead to Aragorn. The reduction of time passed; or distances travelled. The reduction of Legolas’ and Gimli’s friendship. The reduction/loss of Gimli’s affection for Galadriel – again, tying in with that whole CGI “evil” Galadriel thing. Then there is of course: The Old Forest, the Barrowdowns and Tom, but I understand that these were probably necessary cuts. It is my personal belief that many important themes were lost, or chopped out to make way for many of the action sequences, none of which were really specific to LOTR, IMO. They've been done before. (Cass has a nice succinct argument for that.) Unfortunately PJ took a tired formula "tried and true" and stuck in some bits that were pertinent to Middle Earth.
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09-26-2002, 02:07 AM | #54 | |
the Shrike
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09-26-2002, 02:10 AM | #55 |
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I am really hoping the extra half an hour of footage has no action scences. I don't remember any. From what I remember there will be more Rivendell scenes (Aragorn at his mothers grave), Galadriel giving gifts, Frodo singing at Bree, Frodo and Sam seeing elves going west, Bilbo writing and Sam gardening. I think these scenes will greatly improve the movie. *crosses fingers*
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09-26-2002, 02:14 AM | #56 | |
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09-26-2002, 02:17 AM | #57 | |
the Shrike
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09-26-2002, 02:21 AM | #58 | |
the Shrike
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Later Edit: Okay, I looked it up, and it won 2 grammys, 1 oscar, and one golden globe. I can't find anything about the Whitney Houston song though - maybe it was just overplayed (understatement!)
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 09-26-2002 at 02:27 AM. |
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09-26-2002, 02:27 AM | #59 |
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I just checked and 'My Heart will go on won' in 1997. There is my proof.
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09-26-2002, 02:29 AM | #60 | |
the Shrike
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There it is, ladies and gentlemen: proof that the academy awards mean buggerall. Later Edit: Ook. Found it..... 1993: MTV Movie Award: Best Song, "I Will Always Love You" 1993: People's Choice Award: Favorite Female Musical Performer 1993: Grammy: Record of the Year, "I Will Always Love You"; award shared with David Foster 1993: Grammy: Album of the Year, The Bodyguard; award shared 1993: Grammy: Female Pop Vocal Performance, "I Will Always Love You" 1993: American Music Award: Pop/Rock Single, "I Will Always Love You" 1993: American Music Award: Pop/Rock Female Vocalist 1993: American Music Award: Soul/Rhythm and Blues Single, "I Will Always Love You" 1993: American Music Award, Soul/Rhythm and Blues Vocalist 1993: Special American Music Award 1993: Billboard Music Award: #1 World Artist 1993: Billboard Music Award: # 1 World Single, "I Will Always Love You" 1993: Billboard Music Award: #1 R&B Single, "I Will Always Love You" Now that is just in bad taste!
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 09-26-2002 at 02:31 AM. |
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