05-09-2004, 09:01 PM | #41 | |
Quasi Evil
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Really, the religious notion of being good in this life so that we gain the benefits in the "next life" can be seen in decent parallel with the naturalistic idea that if you are "good" such that it benefits your gene pool in this life then your "next life" (your decedents who hold some of your genes) will have a better chance of passing them on in turn. Curious how that works eh...
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05-09-2004, 09:33 PM | #42 | ||
"The Bomb"
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I fully agree with you on our age group being divided into those three parts. And I feel like it's esspecially annoying for me, who enjoys a good argument, but whose family members take horrible offense if you disagree with them, and whose friends are too lazy to care. The only relief I can get from that peaceful dissapointment is yelling at Anglorfin. Concerning the 'dehumanising' involved with ADD and such things, I'm on the fence anyway. I don't have a specific argument, because that always just seems too black and white. The conditions you refer to usually are accredited for some deeds of the person, but that condition has already become a big chunk of their personality. (...I'm not doing so well with words here.) Quote:
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 05-09-2004 at 09:54 PM. |
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05-10-2004, 10:57 AM | #43 | |
The Blobbit
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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05-10-2004, 11:08 AM | #44 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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the motive for being 'good' (or maybe better said, living a 'socially-acceptable lifestyle'), is the very preservation of your own desired lifestyle
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-10-2004, 11:15 AM | #45 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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just because religion is a thing that can cause a good person to do bad, does not mean it is the only thing instead of thinking of grand schemes, i'd like to see people think more about themselves and this life... this sounds selfish, but i think that deep down, every human being is ultimately guided by self interest the key is to show people that it is in their own self-interest to live a 'socially acceptable lifestyle'... which generally means being kind to those around you if you think about it 'do onto others as you would have them do onto you' is a very selfish statement... yet a wise one
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-10-2004, 11:41 AM | #46 | |
Mirthful Maiden
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05-10-2004, 11:48 AM | #47 |
The Blobbit
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Does the Bible only appeal to humans on the level of self interest? 'Do unto others as you would they do unto you'. Does that mean that even God sees humans as selfish?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
05-10-2004, 01:00 PM | #48 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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How is "Do unto others as you would they do unto you" selfish? It just means treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. It doesn't guarantee that YOU'LL be treated with the same consideration. I would say it's the antithesis of selfishness.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-10-2004, 01:58 PM | #49 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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it would be quite a different thing to say 'do unto others as god would expect you to do'... in the first case, the morals come from the individual, as opposed to the absolute in the latter
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-10-2004, 02:58 PM | #50 |
The Blobbit
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Brownjenkin's post sailed happily over my head, so if I'm restating something said just say....
'Do unto others as you would they do unto you' taken as a phrase assumes that the person being told it recognises their own interests, but is being told to respect that of others. So it is assuming the person being taught is basically only capable of selfishness. It's not a negative judgement of that person.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
05-10-2004, 03:10 PM | #51 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
and maybe better put too
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-11-2004, 10:52 PM | #52 | |||
"The Bomb"
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Quote:
I thought that was relevant, and very wise indeed. Quote:
I think it was written like that as a simple rule of thumb, something easy for humans to identify with, whether through selfishness or conscience or whatever. And doubless, it worked; they call it "the Golden Rule" and seems to be among the most universal passages of the Bible.
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05-12-2004, 11:44 AM | #53 | |
The Blobbit
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Good point!
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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05-12-2004, 04:11 PM | #54 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-12-2004, 04:13 PM | #55 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-12-2004, 04:18 PM | #56 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-12-2004, 04:21 PM | #57 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Re: Re: Philosophy
Quote:
Another indicator that God exists - atheists SHOULD NOT be pious if God DOESN'T exist -- yet they are .... think about it. (IOW, if God exists, the fact that an atheist denies this doesn't make God go "poof" and disappear. Kinda like the Nietzsche bumper sticker.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-26-2004, 07:45 AM | #58 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Philosophy
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05-27-2004, 03:50 PM | #59 |
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Well, I keep trying to start a thread called "why you believe what you believe" where I wanted to explain this in detail, but I keep getting sidetracked - and I have to get off the Moot in 5 mintues and can't get back on till prob. Tuesday , but I'll give it a quick whirl ...
From what I observe and read, people all over the world are "pious", or "moral", in the most basic sense of people everywhere acknowledge that there is a "right" and a "wrong". Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, agnostics, whatever - people are MORAL beings. They look at a behavior and make a judgement about whether it is right or wrong (or sometimes just neutral, such as reading a book). And what's really quite amazing is the astounding similarity of what is considered right and wrong. Take killing people, for example. Now people might disagree as to what type of killing is right and what type of killing is wrong (example - some people think capital punishment is right, some think it is wrong. Some people think killing a person for self-defense is right, some think it is wrong. Some people think that killing soldiers that are invading your country is right, some think it is wrong) - but ALL people, from what we read and observe, think that some level of killing is wrong - usually killing solely for selfish personal gain. Same thing with lying. Some people think that it's ok to lie to save someone else, some think it's not OK. But all people, from what we read and observe, think that lying solely for selfish personal gain at the expense of a person that you love is wrong. I could go on and on, but as I said, I have to get off soon, so I'll just give those 2 examples. Now IIRC, you're an atheist. I'm a Christian. I won't get into how we have each arrived at our beliefs right now, but let's take turns jumping inside of each other's beliefs and see how they play out. Ladies first so come on into Christianity with me. Christianity says that God is a moral being, and that He created people in His image, which among other things means they are moral beings. In addition, the Bible states that God has placed His basic moral values into the heart of EVERY person that has ever lived, and their conscience accused them when they go against the moral laws in their hearts, and affirms them when they go with the moral laws in their hearts. Now take a look around - is this what you see? It's sure what I see. People are moral beings, they have consciences which often are really irritating but are really the instrument of a loving God to point out people's errors and their need of Him, and morals all over the world are very similar. Thus, it is perfectly compatible with Christianity being true that atheists, even tho they don't believe in God, are MORAL. Now I'll step outside of Christianity into atheism with you. Atheism claims, basically, that there is no God or higher being with any type of superior claim to authority or power. Now what can one deduce from this? Personally, I think it is logical to deduce that the concepts of "right" and "wrong" should not even exist. If there is no higher authority, then everyone has the same authority, and my opinion of what is right or wrong is just as good as yours - we're at the same authority level. In fact, there shouldn't even be a moral sense AT ALL in people, let alone a common one. If you tell me "don't murder my friend, it's wrong!" I could easily answer "I don't care what you think is wrong, I disagree, and I want to murder your friend!" And what's more, neither one of us should feel bad about it - after all, why should we? My opinion is just as important (or unimportant) as yours. But we do not see this happening! In fact, quite the opposite. Both you and I think murdering your friend is WRONG. And this, to me, is a STRONG indicator that atheism is NOT correct; that there IS, in fact, a moral God, as Christianity states. Sorry if this doesn't make sense - I'm in a hurry - but it's a start. What do you think? (and actually, you hinted at this very thing in your first post, IIRC - the whole idea of right and wrong suggesting the existence of God, or something along those lines - no time to check!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-27-2004, 09:17 PM | #60 |
Quasi Evil
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one could easily counter this "christian logic" of the proof of morality and therefore god with the quite obvious fact that you are ignoring the countless examples of humans being horrible and cruel to each other. killing without remorse. brutilizing and raping and destroying and torturing. so the question really shouldnt be why we are often nice to each other and how that proves god. The question really should be why are we also mean to each other so often if god carefully injects these morals into each of us that are supposed to urge us toward the straight and narrow.
now of course your retort to this will be oh well thats because god in all his infinite wisdom decided to give us FREE WILL! which proves the existance of god even more! because, what do you know, we have free will! but if you use this as a response then your original proof that god gave us morals is deflated it seems to me because why give us strong morals and yet turn around and give us free will to do bad things? unless god is a giant lab scientist on some holy university grant and we are his test subjects. sure its possible. but i dont see how you can say this is the clearest proof of god in action. it seems a lot more logical that biologically humans gain more from being sociable with each other but can certainly sometimes benefit from being horrible to each other. and that plays out in the observed data perfectly.
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