09-16-2008, 02:35 PM | #41 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-16-2008, 05:35 PM | #42 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Looks good! Thanks!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-16-2008 at 05:37 PM. |
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09-16-2008, 06:01 PM | #43 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Could a man kill the WK, given the opportunity? Sure he could - but he wouldn't get this opportunity. Could a woman and a hobbit with a Barrow-blade kill the WK back in TA 1975? Yes they could - exactly in the same manner as in TA 3019. But would they be given the chance? No, as the prophecy said "Far off is his doom". Thus the WK basically had nothing to fear for a very long time after the prophesy had been made: men, women, Elves, Dwarves, falling meteorites, drunken orcs, hungry fellbeasts, angry Sauron - there was nothing that would bring about his doom before the time was ripe. |
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09-16-2008, 10:23 PM | #44 | |||
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To say that anyone could have killed the Witch-king once Merry had stabbed him with the barrow-blade misses the point of prophecy. The point is not that “anyone could have done it”: the point is that Glorfindel, taken “in the Spirit” – seeing all the lines of action across time in one instant, as if all the veils of time were suddenly swept aside for him for that passing moment – foresaw that the Lord of the Nazgûl, a fierce and terrifying enemy that had not only collapsed the important state of Arnor and nearly annihilated all the northern Dúnedain, but then escaped! that this seemingly unconquerable opponent would indeed fall, but not by the “hand of man.”
You’re also looking at this from the point of view of the “good guys.” Think about it for a moment from the point of view of the “bad guys.” The Witch-king must have been emboldened in attack: after all, he was, in his own mind, invulnerable. He is much like Macbeth in Act 5, Scene 7 : Quote:
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The Witch-king, on the other hand, after a brief internal debate, took the other tack. He assaulted Éowyn with all his might, “with a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom”; if not for Merry, he would have killed her, and from the description of the fight, “his eyes glittered,” he believed he had won. But why did he ignore Merry? He had seen the hobbits at Weathertop, and he knew how at least one had then been armed: all the Nazgûl save he had hung back when Frodo drew his barrow-blade there. No, his focus, his fury, his face were set against Éowyn. Why? Because of the Prophecy of the North. Éowyn challenged him: Quote:
The Witch-king, like Macbeth, relied upon prophecy for his inspiration and hope. (The differences in their effects might be explained this way: Macbeth’s prophecy was spoken by fiends, and so when revealed to cheat his hope, left him depressed; while the Witch-king’s was spoken by something like unto a saint and so invigorated him in the end, even though it spoke of – and presaged – his doom.) Without the Prophecy of the North, the Witch-king would likely have been more wary, and certainly less intimidated by Éowyn! But importantly, he would have been less likely to ignore Merry. Each prophecy worked as a trap for the villain. Could “anyone” have struck the Witch-king after Merry cut him? Perhaps: but that was not the prophecy, and it without the prophecy, the Witch-king might not have been killed at all. |
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09-17-2008, 01:17 AM | #45 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Great post, Alcuin. I have seen people make parallels with Macbeth many times, but haven't seen "Macbeth" quoted. Very interesting.
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1.The WK got really upset and angry about the fate of his mount - a rarest species on the ME Red List of Threatened Animals. Note also that the Nazgul Lord personally helped Sauron in developing the Winged Beast project (RC). 2. The WK became stranded and couldn't retreat - at least with dignity 3. The sun was shining, Sauron's pall of Darkness had been blown away and thus the WK had difficulty seeing the World of Light. He couldn't use the sight of his mount as he did before, so he became practically blind. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 09-17-2008 at 01:21 AM. |
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09-18-2008, 03:11 PM | #46 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I have to say that this thread has discussed the question more intelligently and with less heat than I have ever seen done. The "losing" poster often quite sth forum in disgust. Great job, everyone.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
09-18-2008, 04:32 PM | #47 |
Elf Lord
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Entmoot has to be the friendliest board I've found. Not the place to come for a good knock-down, drag-out but certainly a nice place for good, well thought out opinions.
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09-18-2008, 09:03 PM | #48 | |
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I had not before considered, though, that to him, the dawning light might have caused a dimming to his vision. Aragorn said that the noonday sun obscured their vision: he wasn’t blind just yet. You might consider that, from the time the Rider rose up from the dead beast until the moment Eowyn decapitated him, probably took less than 2 minutes. It all happened very quickly. |
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09-19-2008, 04:04 AM | #49 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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WK: "Stand not betwee... OWW! ... Well, I guess you may keep the old king, my beauty: he is as good as dead anyway... Say, care for a ride on my Fell Beast? I will bear thee away... beyond all darkness...." Artwork by Allor (open at your peril): Last edited by Gordis : 09-19-2008 at 05:12 AM. |
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09-19-2008, 05:11 AM | #50 | |||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Well that was an attempt at humor. Now let us turn serious.
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Now let us follow the events of March 15 paying attention to light and darkness. 1. At the Gate. It is very dark: regular night + Sauron's Darkness. The WK prepares to fight Gandalf whom he sees clearly (because it is dark and probably because Gandalf the White shines in the Spirit World). Also the WK is mounted. Note: the WK has chosen a sword as his weapon, not a mace. 2. Theoden's attack on the Pelennor. Quote:
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4. Now Eowyn faces the WK, still within the patch of darkness mentioned above. Quote:
5. Now Eowyn kills the Fell Beast and the shadow vanishes with it. Quote:
6. The final scene takes place in the sunlight. The wrathful WK attacks Eowyn with the mace. He never misses (unlike in the movie). One hit - and her arm is broken, shield shattered. Another stroke - and she would be dead. Then from behind, unheeded, crawls Merry with the Barrow-blade and strikes. Note:.it is morning, not noon, but the sun is out. Both Eowyn and Merry would look like pale shadows to the WK - shadows in the mist. The help of the Fell Beasts eyesight is denied to him. Could he rely on smell? Hardly - there was the smell of blood all around on that battlefield, and also the Fell Beast stank foully. What about "other senses?" I guess they could help a lot in dark and loneliness, but again, hardly in the middle of a battlefield, with live/wounded/dead humans all around. Also, using "other senses" might have required concentration, and all the WK's attention was on Eowyn. Actually it is the unique appearance of a lone nazgul fighting unmounted under the sun. They must have avoided such situations like a plague - it had to be perilous. Last edited by Gordis : 09-19-2008 at 05:14 AM. |
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09-19-2008, 09:55 AM | #51 |
Elf Lord
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If while the beast was alive, the shadow cast was upon Eowyn, then the sunrise was behind him.
When WiKi faced Eowyn, the sun was facing her, making her difficult to see. Likewise, had the WiKi turned to look behind him where Merry crept up, he would be looking into the sun, further obscuring his vision. He kept the sun to his back, along with Merry.
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09-19-2008, 02:55 PM | #52 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Very likely, DPR.
The Rohirrim were coming from the North, while the WK likely kept his beast somewhere on the road to Osgiliath, if not in Osgiliath itself. Thus he was likely coming from the East when he attacked Theoden and indeed had sunrise behind his back. Here is K.W. Fonstad's map:http://Pelennor |
09-19-2008, 03:49 PM | #53 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-19-2008, 04:55 PM | #54 |
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I thought “Dernhelm” looked like all the other riders, just smaller in stature and build. “He” seems to have lost his breeches here.
The swordstroke looks correct, though. (I was always under the impression that Eowyn’s blow against the beast might have been a backhand stroke, but I’m not sure she could generate enough energy to sever the head that way.) The art is certainly attractive! -|- [added later] The medieval mace is a weapon for use against armor. A sword at the gate might have another meaning altogether. Historically, the mace is an exceedingly primitive weapon in terms of its age and use. The Egyptians perfected it before the First Dynasty. Narmer, first Pharaoh of both Upper and Lower Egypt, is depicted using a highly sophisticated mace in the famed Narmer Palette, which is over 5,000 years old. (I.e., it’s a little older than the Witch-king was when he died.) The medieval mace was generally spiked or flanged (perhaps the Witch-king’s mace was flanged) for the purpose of piercing armor. A peasant during the Middle Ages might have carried a pike or spear or axe or even a sword, but only a nobleman would carry a mace, because he would definitely have to attack an opponent through armor. From a practical standpoint, the Witch-king’s choice of mace as weapon – along with the “dart,” which I agree must have come from a crossbow – was entirely practical: he would be using his mace against armored cavalrymen whom he would likely be attacking from above (i.e., hitting them on their armored noggins). In this case, the mace is also a far more aggressive choice: it indicates that he intends to strike the person, and not the mount. He might well have had both sword and mace with him on the flying beast: again, the mace is the logical choice over the sword, which might or might not provide a cut on the first attack; but the mace broke Éowyn’s shieldarm right away. Even if the sword was his preferred weapon, the mace in this case was a better choice: he knew he might be dealing with the Prophecy of the North, and the mace was more likely to bring down his opponent faster and with less risk to himself, particularly if, as he likely judged it, that opponent was a woman much smaller than he. Last edited by Alcuin : 09-19-2008 at 05:31 PM. |
09-20-2008, 12:34 AM | #55 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I like Frazetta too. Have you seen the next picture? Our shielmaiden turns into a damsel in distress.
Alcuin, you are right about the mace, but still, using it hardly needs as much precision as using a sword. I am glad you agree about nazgul carrying crossbows - I have seen it argued to death that the dart was NOT from the nazgul, couldn't be etc... Last edited by Gordis : 09-20-2008 at 12:41 AM. |
09-20-2008, 02:46 AM | #56 | |
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-|-…Of course, if the Witch-king used a crossbow to put a quarrel into Snowmane, that would seem to indicate that he had a pretty good indication of Théoden’s position and movement across the field, particularly from a moving mount. Historically, firing a bow from horseback is a life-long pursuit: you start your training from childhood, like the Huns or the Mongols, or the Comanche or the Apache. I suppose firing a crossbow would be more like firing a pistol or rifle from horseback, but those are not easy, either. Last edited by Alcuin : 09-20-2008 at 02:52 AM. |
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09-20-2008, 03:02 AM | #57 | |
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09-20-2008, 03:13 AM | #58 | |
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I would imagine that, if Khamûl was the most confused by sunlight, the Witch-king was probably the least bothered by it, and probably enjoyed the best “vision” of the normal world as we would understand it. |
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09-20-2008, 03:31 AM | #59 |
Enting
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Hi All! Does anybody remember Pippin's attitude when he and Gandalf first came to the main gate upon their arrival at Gondor? Pippin really hotly denies that he is a man, when Gandalf refers to him as one, to the gate guards. Pippin proclaims himself a Hobbit and not a man. Pippin also says he has not come of age yet in his own country. Though mentioning his adolescence here doesn't have much relevance to my point.
Adult male Hobbits are described as men in a kind of way, through descriptive simplicity and perhaps because of a lack of other pronouns in common speech . Yet they are not men are in the same way as Aragorn or Faramir are. Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status. Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it. _Zilbanne Last edited by Zilbanne : 09-20-2008 at 03:37 AM. Reason: grammar mistake |
09-20-2008, 02:45 PM | #60 |
Elven Warrior
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Excellent observation, Zilbanne, whether correct or not (who knows for sure?).
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