Wraiths

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by me9996

It's were the wraiths live!
But otherwise I think that it is alot like this one.

Well when Sam took the Ring off it is described as stepping out of a mist. So it would have been foggy and all thigs out of the wraith world would have been dimeed.

[Blackheart]

Well... to turn the conversation in another direction, what about the men in the paths of the dead...

Wraiths.. or ghosts?

Is there a significant difference?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

From The Last Debate:

Strange and wonderfulI thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness.

[ItalianLegolas]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

This makes me think what would happen to an elf who had lived in Valinor, if they got stabbed by a Morgul blade.

What would happen if they were stabbed by a Morgul blade? Nothing? A mere scratch to them?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Or perhaps they would become only visble in the wraith world and not in the living world.

[ItalianLegolas]

possible...

[Blackheart]

So.. If the oath breakers are wraiths... then there are obviously other wraiths in the world...

The question is, how were they turned to wraiths?

Obviously not by the same means the nazgul were... they were turned by their rings.

And Frodo would have been turned into a wraith either by the power of the one ring, or the morgul spell, or a combination of both... not that it matters to the discussion, in either case there's a ring involved.

The men of the paths of the dead were cursed by Isildur, if you remember...

The question is, was it before or after Isildur aquired the one ring? If it was after then you needn't worry about another mechanism for becoming a wraith, wraithhood always involves a ring somewhere down the line...

Unfortunately for that theory, I think that Isildur cursed the oathbreakers BEFORE he got the one ring...

Which means that... the curse of the King of the Kings of Men (the Dúnedain) can also turn you into into a wraith! Which seems sort of unlikely...

Perhaps (and I think most likely) becoming a wraith is mostly a variation of ghosthood, brought on by regret, self loathing, and hatred. If you notice, the ghosts of the oathbreakers couldn't actually physically harm anyone. Terror was their only weapon.

Unlike the Nazgul, who's primary weapon was terror, but they could physically touch you. Perhaps the rings they wore provided them with a method of physically interacting with the material world, even though they were mostly on the "spirit plane".

Which means that if Frodo had become a wraith, he would have lost the ability to interact with the material world once the one ring was wrested from him... leaving him just a formless tormented ghost...

[ItalianLegolas]

wow, now thats food for thought, I think your right about the curse before he obtained the ring, for some reason it just sounds like it would make more sense

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Isildur cursed them to have no peace until their oath was fulfilled. But one curse couldn't stop men from dying, for if it did then the Men of Numenor would have cused each other in the times of Ar-Pharason, so they could never die. And death was the gift of Eru to men, and immortal life was something even the Valar could not grant Men. So I think the curse gave them a half life. Not to die, but not to live either.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

So.. If the oath breakers are wraiths... then there are obviously other wraiths in the world...

The question is, how were they turned to wraiths?

Obviously not by the same means the nazgul were... they were turned by their rings.

And Frodo would have been turned into a wraith either by the power of the one ring, or the morgul spell, or a combination of both... not that it matters to the discussion, in either case there's a ring involved.

The men of the paths of the dead were cursed by Isildur, if you remember...

The question is, was it before or after Isildur aquired the one ring? If it was after then you needn't worry about another mechanism for becoming a wraith, wraithhood always involves a ring somewhere down the line...

Unfortunately for that theory, I think that Isildur cursed the oathbreakers BEFORE he got the one ring...

Which means that... the curse of the King of the Kings of Men (the Dúnedain) can also turn you into into a wraith! Which seems sort of unlikely...

Perhaps (and I think most likely) becoming a wraith is mostly a variation of ghosthood, brought on by regret, self loathing, and hatred. If you notice, the ghosts of the oathbreakers couldn't actually physically harm anyone. Terror was their only weapon.

Unlike the Nazgul, who's primary weapon was terror, but they could physically touch you. Perhaps the rings they wore provided them with a method of physically interacting with the material world, even though they were mostly on the "spirit plane".

Which means that if Frodo had become a wraith, he would have lost the ability to interact with the material world once the one ring was wrested from him... leaving him just a formless tormented ghost...

They are mere ghosts and are dead but do not rest.
Wraiths on the other hand are still alive but are invisable in this world.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The quote I posted above states them as wraiths.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by me9996

They are mere ghosts and are dead but do not rest.
Wraiths on the other hand are still alive but are invisable in this world.

Umm.. Wraiths are not "alive"... Nor does it sound like a restful condition.

[ItalianLegolas]

it sounds more like a state of insomnia referring to the world of undead

[me9996]

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

What would happen if they were stabbed by a Morgul blade? Nothing? A mere scratch to them?

How about a wizzard?
Would a wizzard become an invisable wizzard?
If he did I'd call him a wraith-wizzard.

[Blackheart]

Somehow I doubt it. It would take a spirit much stronger than even the witch king to subdue or subvert a maia...

But he certainly had enough "spiritual strength" to affect a human or a hobbit... maybe dwarves and even some elves.

Pehaps if Sauron were the one using a Morgul blade... but you kind of get the sense that would be slumming for him.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Somehow I doubt it. It would take a spirit much stronger than even the witch king to subdue or subvert a maia...

But he certainly had enough "spiritual strength" to affect a human or a hobbit... maybe dwarves and even some elves.

Pehaps if Sauron were the one using a Morgul blade... but you kind of get the sense that would be slumming for him.

A wizzard is an istari not a maia

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by me9996

A wizzard is an istari not a maia

Dear me9996,
The istari are an organization of Maiar. So yes, a wizzard is a Maia.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Embladyne

Dear me9996,
The istari are an organization of Maiar. So yes, a wizzard is a Maia.

Huh? (Oh well I haven't finished the "silm" so I gess I'll have to trust you)

[Elemmírë]

Hey guys, you do know that wizard only has one Z, right?

Anyway, yes, me9996, the Istari are Maiar. I understand your confusion due to not having read the Silm. A quote from the Silm:

Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men call Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came from over the Sea.

Olorin (Mithrandir, Gandalf), is also called in the Valaquenta "Wisest of the Maiar."

[Elemmírë]

Weird, my post doesn't come up on "last post"...

Well, this should take care of that.

Anyway, I wonder how Isildur himself had the power to curse someone in that fashion. It seems like the sort of thing like partly withholding (for a time at least) the Gift of Man should be beyond a mortal's power, even if he had Elvish and even Maiarin blood...