06-14-2003, 06:47 PM | #41 | |
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06-14-2003, 10:25 PM | #42 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I like that "performanced based and goal driven roadmap" bit. It sounds like some corporate mission statement.
I don't think that all Israelis want the extermination of all the Palestinians but I'm sure there is a significant portion that would like to see the extermination of the radical factions. This is the critical point and Radagast could give us a better perspective. How much influence do the hardliners have in the parlimentary system in Israel? Even if not the majority, the system allows a large influence for minor factions to be swing votes in determining leadership and policy Israel has the fourth(?) largest military in the world. If they wanted to exterminate the Palestinians it wouldn't be very difficult. How about just renaming all the disputed areas "Palestine: Home of the Israelites"?(j/k)
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06-14-2003, 11:12 PM | #43 | ||||
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It was just on the news - Palestinians and Israelis are meeting tonight. A US Mediator is going to be there. Koffi Anan is talking about sending UN peacekeepers. As far as I'm concerned - the peace process is still on track. It's much more positive than just having meetings at Camp David - doing a few photo ops at the White House and then going back to the Middle East where they just go back to the way it was before the talks. Been there - done that. It's about time someoine tried something new.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-14-2003 at 11:13 PM. |
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06-14-2003, 11:24 PM | #44 |
Lady of Lamedon
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Is this thread filled with people who went to Israel?!
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06-15-2003, 12:25 AM | #45 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-15-2003, 10:43 AM | #46 | |
Elf Lord
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Of course, a cynic or a Marxist might take the view that Britain and France pushed the League (which at that time they completely dominated) into handing them over a huge chunk of territory for exploitation, as per the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916. The problem was that in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 the British also promised to agree to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the Palestinian part of the Mandate. After WWII, sympathy for the sufferings of the Jewish people were such that the United Nations voted to establish a Jewish Homeland by dividing Palestine. Naturally enough, the Palestinians didn't agree- after all, if the West wanted to compensate the Jews for the suffering caused by Germany, why not give them Bavaria or Saxony- or Wales or Provence or New Jersey? And , JerseyDevil, just checking out "The Peace to End All Peace" at Amazon, it seems like a very good reference, which is why I doubt that the author claims that Britain "owned" the Middle East, unless he's referring to a metaphorical rather than legalistic sense (as in "the Spurs own the Nets).
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06-15-2003, 10:59 AM | #47 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-15-2003, 11:15 AM | #48 | |
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IMO, Arafat totally betrayed both the peace process and his own people when he refused to accept the deal offered by Barak, or even state a counter-offer. He thought he could exploit suicide bombings by Hamas and Islamic Jihad to force a few more concessions. My basic opinion is this: I don't believe that the establishment of the State of Israel was just, but it exists now and the only solution is for the Palestinians to swallow their bitterness and accept a compromise. Of course, that would deprive every despotism in the Middle-East of one of its main excuses for not reforming....
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-15-2003 at 11:21 AM. |
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06-15-2003, 01:07 PM | #49 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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The tribes in Judea had been there long before the land was called Palestine; it's historical fact. When the holocost alerted British sensibilities they merely tried to give back what once was. After all there are millions of miles surrounding Israel which have been and still are controlled by Arabic tribes. For those of Palestinian decent who chose to live within the State of Israel after it's inception, working with and not against should have been the rule. Now those who have no right claim Israelis have no right and they kill without regard and for no purpose other than the utter destruction of the State of Israel. That is middle age thinking at best.
The words of T.E. Lawrence still ring true (and apply to the current continued fighting with Israelis: "So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people, greedy, barbarous, and cruel"
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06-15-2003, 01:42 PM | #50 | |
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For the British to decide to give Israel to the Jews to rectify ancient injustices is the equivalent of Israel deciding to give England back to Wales; or America, Canada or Australia back to their original inhabitants- or for that matter, shipping the Germans and French back to Hungary, or the Hungarians back to Central Asia. As compensation for the Holocaust it makes even less sense. The Arabs have thousands of miles of land? so do the Europeans and their descendants-- let them give some of it up. Pick a point in history, pick your favorite tribal legend, and justify it on that.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-15-2003, 02:07 PM | #51 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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It's called war and has been done so since the beginning. Even in Asia. Time for those who lost (eons ago) to get over it. Time for those who murder and hate and who failed 50 years ago to kill the State of Israel, to realize PEACE is the only viable option to bloodshed.
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06-15-2003, 02:16 PM | #52 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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[
For the British to decide to give Israel to the Jews to rectify ancient injustices is the equivalent of Israel deciding to give England back to Wales; or America, Canada or Australia back to their original inhabitants- or for that matter, shipping the Germans and French back to Hungary, or the Hungarians back to Central Asia. .....................WHAT!? That is convoluted at best. As compensation for the Holocaust it makes even less sense. Not really, the land was theirs from ancient times. The land wasn't of any value even to the tribes living there. The Israelis made it livable, viable and profitable when centuries of camel drivers could not. The Arabs have thousands of miles of land? so do the Europeans and their descendants-- let them give some of it up. THE EUROPEANS only want Arab oil and have no interest in Jewish rights per se. Pick a point in history, pick your favorite tribal legend, and justify it on that. [/B][/QUOTE] pleeeease "stolen" is such a loaded word. Warfare directes spoils to the winner it has always been so even amongst Bedouin and Chinese.
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06-15-2003, 02:51 PM | #53 | ||||
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-15-2003 at 03:00 PM. |
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06-15-2003, 02:59 PM | #54 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Graymouser - Spock seem to make some very good points against your posts and assumptions. England CONQUERED the Middle East and destroyed the Ottoman Empire - the land was theirs to do with what they wanted to - which they did.
The Palestinians could be living in a very nice country right now - if they weren't always blowing themselves up.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
06-15-2003, 04:05 PM | #55 | ||||
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The areas were not stolen - they were conquered. Look in the Bible. Quote:
From the Proclamation of Independence, quote: Quote:
Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 06-15-2003 at 04:06 PM. |
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06-15-2003, 05:49 PM | #56 | |
"The Bomb"
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Sorry, nothing else to post. THat rocks.
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06-16-2003, 11:20 AM | #57 | |
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As did the Jews after the Romans kicked them out of Palestine- eons later, they returned. As did the Irish, every time they were crushed by the Brits, or the Poles every time they were divided between Germany and Russia, or the Vietnamese against the Chinese, French and Americans. The Palestinians' inspiration is the Crusaders, whose states lasted from 1098 to 1291- four times as long as the current State of Israel has existed- but who eventually went back where they came from.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-16-2003, 11:28 AM | #58 | |
Elf Lord
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This is the same argument that the Europeans applied to the aboriginal peoples they conquered, and the Nazis applied to the peoples of Eastern Europe and Russia.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-16-2003, 11:35 AM | #59 | |
Elf Lord
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Charging into someone's land, running a sword through them, slaughtering their male children and claiming their women as slaves- I may be morally obtuse, but please explain the difference between conquest and theft?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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06-16-2003, 12:15 PM | #60 | |
Elf Lord
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But the original question was about the LEGAL establishment of the State of Israel, and no matter what way you look at it the British did not own any territory in the Middle East, the way they legally owned India or Hong Kong- their legal authority wasn't based on conquest. As the British and French both openly acknowledged, their authority (not power !) in the former Ottoman Empire was based on a mandate from the League of Nations to administer the occupied territories for the (eventual) benefit of the local inhabitants. Part of the problem here is you are describing what actually happened in terms of the straight-forward imperial power politics- and I agree with you on that -while I'm talking about the diplomatic and legal framework that was used as a justification. Currently the USA and Britain RULE over Iraq as occupying powers ( along with the other members of the Coalition, of course- anybody asked Eritrea's opinion lately?), recognized as such by the UN- does that mean that the USA owns Iraq? Of course, Palestine wasn't a country- it was a separately administered and recognised territory - the Mandate of Palestine. And the Jewish homeland was established long before what? Actually, the Balfour Declaration didn't specify Palestine as a Jewish National Homeland- there was some discussion of Uganda or Madagascar. Referring to New Jersey, I wasn't saying that Britain or anyone else had the authority to give it to the Jews, but bringing out the Arab argument- "Hey, WE didn't stuff Jews into ovens, you so-called civilised Westerners did- if it was solely the fault of the Germans, let them compensate the Jews; if it was a collective guilt of Christendom, work it out among yourselves- but don't take OUR land because YOU feel guilty"
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-16-2003 at 12:20 PM. |
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