High Kings of the Noldor

[Lefty Scaevola]

Making him Fingon's son was just error on the part of CT. He was already the son of Oredreth in the drafts of S which CT used, but it was one of those things that silliped by in the confused state of said drafts, and he may have been confused with Finbor, a prospective son of Fingon that JRRT had written and then uncreated. Yhe change in the geneolgy from one draft to another was Oredreth being moved a generation, being change from being Finarfin's son to Angrod's son.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dain
Sister Golden Hair - Please tell me in which book Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon to Oredreth, because all the books i have dont mention this.

Dain, check out the link I mentioned in one of my posts on the first page - here it is again, for your convenience : http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/44954.

p.s. - I've always loved the sound of Leeds - is it a nice place to live?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Dain
Sister Golden Hair - Please tell me in which book Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon to Oredreth, because all the books i have dont mention this.

Lefty's post above is correct. It wasn't that Tolkien changed the parentage as much as it was an error on Christopher's part in editing the Silmarillion. He corrects his mistakes in the Histories of Middle-earth series. I believe you can find the info in volumes 11 (War of the Jewels) and 12 (The Peoples of Middle-earth).

[Ñólendil]

Well maybe, but I don't think Tolkien used the word Exile so loosely. Exiles were a specific group in that story, and I think always refering to the Noldor that left Aman in the First Age.

I don't think so either, but if we must accept that Gildor was of the House of Finarfin (which we must because he was), then we have to reason and even cheat a little. Originnaly Gildor was Felagund's son, as you know, but now we know he couldn't have been Finrod's son, although he could have been descended from him. We have to get around "Exiles".

I have no doubt in my mind that by "Exile" Tolkien meant, when he wrote it, that Gildor was one of those who left Aman in defiance of the Valar before the First Age, or was descended from one and born in Middle-earth. But he can't have meant that anymore, or so I hold, it just doesn't work.

Maybe Gildor was born of Inglor in Aman after the return of Finrod, and was cast out for some mysterious crime, or left when he was told not to, or was paying a debt or something, and so could be called an Exile. Some explanation ought to be devised.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Thanks for the reference on the Histories of Middle-Earth series.

Two comments: First, as for Gildor,

We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea.

That sounds to me as though he was among the Noldor who defied the Valar and left Aman. Given the discussion here, though, I'm going to have to think about the meaning of "our kindred."

believe "High" King was used only in Middle Earth. It was irrelevant in Aman where there was only one king at time

It may or may not be a technical detail, but Ingwe's title in Aman was, as given in The Silmarillion, "High King of all the Elves."

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien

Two comments: First, as for Gildor, That sounds to me as though he was among the Noldor who defied the Valar and left Aman. Given the discussion here, though, I'm going to have to think about the meaning of "our kindred."

I agree with this, that he was one of the original Exiles of Aman. He states in LotRs that he is of the House of Finrod, meaning Finarfin. That could mean that he was just of that following or served that line.

It may or may not be a technical detail, but Ingwe's title in Aman was, as given in The Silmarillion, "High King of all the Elves."

True, Ingwe was High King of all the Elves, but it seems that each branch had their own king as well. In Middle-earth, the only ones to use the title "High King" is the Noldor.

[Ñólendil]

He states in LotRs that he is of the House of Finrod, meaning Finarfin.

Only in the first edition and the numerous editions following which (incorrectly) did not incorporate Tolkien's revision.

For the Second Edition, Tolkien changed Gildor's words to "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarphin".

[olsonm]

Well, if he is of the house of Finarfin wouldn't that make it easier to just add him in somewhere? I mean if Orodreth can gain Angrod as a father and Gil-Galad for a son, isn't there room somewhere else in the family to drop in Gildor? At least for the sake of speculation?

[Tar-Elenion]

There is a problem with Gildor being a descendant of Finarfin. App. A notes that the lineage of the High-elven Kings in Middle-earth was represented only the sons of Earendil and their descendants after the fall of Gil-galad.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
That could mean that he was just of that following or served that line.

I like this interpretation but is it legitimate?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by olsonm
I like this interpretation but is it legitimate?

Not sure if we'll ever know.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Ingwe was High King of all the Elves

I recall the phrase as being "Most High Lord among the Eldar", Eldar in this sense being the Elves of the grat jouney, and not the Avari. My feelling of it is not that he had any overlordship over the other two knidreds, but that he was the most exalted and respected.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

I'll have to look back in The Silmarillion and check out the references given here, but FWIW my impression now is that Ingwe was High King of all the Elves because of his physical closeness to and love of the Valar. If so, I wonder has it ever been brought up anywhere that perhaps the Noldor set up a High King in Middle-Earth as part of their defiance of the Valar: "over there is Ingwe (one of the Sons of Feanor would probably at this point call him a 'vassal of the Valar' ) but we're doing just fine here with our own High King, so there. Nya-nya-ny-nya-nya"

Oh, it's been a long Monday.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The heirship rules of the Noldorin roylaty are nowhere expressed, but the descent (with Gil-Galad being Oredreth's Son) Fingolfin to Fingon to Turgon to Gil-Galad, and then not to Elrond is consistant with with a rule of male descent only. Galadriel and Celebrindal excluded for being female, Earendil and Elrond for being descended only through Celebrindal.
If Gildor is descended from Finrod (in Aman) but through female descent only, this would explain his lack of claim to the Noldorin Kingship in ME.
Another possiblity, consistant with Gildor being a EXILE, and with Finrod having no children in ME, is that his family connection is not blood descent. Perhaps he was orphaned and Finrod made him his foster son. This might have made him one of the family "Inglorion of the House of Finarfin" but not given him any claim to the Kingship.

[Rían]

Good points, Lady of I and Lefty.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Oh, mine was a little off the wall -- it had been a long day They probably loved Ingwe, and that wouldn't change, as the Vanyar hadn't interacted with the rebelling Noldor at all, had they? If they were to be bitter at any Elf in Aman, it would have been Finarfin, had they known he had been made king of the remaining Noldor there. But they didn't know that.

The question was raised earlier, who would be king as the various High Kings among the Exiles came out of Mandos' halls.

Likely Finarfin would remain king, even when the exiles returned, as he had repented.

But who would have been let out? Wasn't that part of the punishment?

Feanor I would count as a king, even if not technically on the list, because of Fingolfin's words to him in Valmar, and also because of the power of his works (namely, in creating the Silmarils) and his power of leadership, but after his death he was locked in until the end.

There is Finrod walking with his father over there afterwards, but he was a special case, being the first Elf (I think, certainly the first Noldo) to meet Men, and having given his life in Middle-Earth to save Beren.

What were the rules of leaving Mandos' halls if you were an Exile?

[olsonm]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
There is Finrod walking with his father over there afterwards, but he was a special case, being the first Elf (I think, certainly the first Noldo) to meet Men, and having given his life in Middle-Earth to save Beren.

What were the rules of leaving Mandos' halls if you were an Exile?

It's also possible that Finrod didn't come out until after the Ban had been lifted.

[Ñólendil]

Ahh, Tar-Elenion has struck right at the heart.

There is a problem with Gildor being a descendant of Finarfin. App. A notes that the lineage of the High-elven Kings in Middle-earth was represented only the sons of Earendil and their descendants after the fall of Gil-galad.

I think, then, that we ought to take a suggestion from SGH. Gildor lived in the home of Finarphin, or was of his following, or something similar to that. Hmm.

I wonder, ... perhaps he was related by marriage ... Angrod (son of Finarphin) married an obscure Ñoldorin woman by the name of Eldalótë (or in Sindarin Edhellos). Perhaps Eldalóte had a close relative named Ilauro, or something that might be rendered into "Inglor" in the tongue of Beleriand.

[the real findorfin]

where does this different genealogy of Gil-Galad come from?

It really isn't as good and doesn't make sense.

If when Finrod died, why did Orodreth (arothir) take the throne, when Aegnor and Angrod were around. (where they dead yet)

It doesn't fit in with much of the Sil. (yes I know its different) but I just don't like it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by the real findorfin
where does this different genealogy of Gil-Galad come from?

It really isn't as good and doesn't make sense.

If when Finrod died, why did Orodreth (arothir) take the throne, when Aegnor and Angrod were around. (where they dead yet)

It doesn't fit in with much of the Sil. (yes I know its different) but I just don't like it.

Nomatter if Orodreth was Finrod's brother, or nephew, he would still have been the heir to Finrod's throne. Finrod's brothers died before he did.