04-13-2008, 09:43 AM | #41 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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04-13-2008, 09:49 AM | #42 | ||
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But there are times when we do go out of our way for strangers, and this should have been such an occasion. To me, the reason is quite clear. That reason is the extraordinary magnitude of the situation, something that would be difficult to parallel in the real world. Although Gildor probably didn't fully appreciate the importance of what was happening (but he may have), he had to have a pretty good guess (also, as Gordis pointed out, he conveniently didn't ask too many questions). Gildor's list of excuses (which, yes, we all look for) is quite thin in my opinion. He apparently had no pressing business (he himself said he was tarrying). He wasn't traveling with children. Yes he could say it wasn't any of his concern and was dangerous. These are reasons people often give not to help others. Accepting that we are all selfish beings, I would say these are typically good reasons. But again, this isn't a typical situation. The well being of every person in Middle Earth (who couldn't run away to Valinor, at least) hinged on Frodo getting to Rivendell and Gildor, if he didn't know it, had to strongly suspect it. I didn't give the excuse that the Elves' presence would be a disadvantage to Frodo because I will never believe it. That these pitifully underprepared hobbits were better off alone that with a group of Noldorian Elves doesn't at all ring true and it isn't one of the reasons Gildor himself gave (those would be apathy and fear). If Gildor knew that Frodo's burden was the Ring, he had little reason to fear its effect on him and his companions because he couldn't possibly have known about Gollum's story and his was the only case of someone other that a ringholder being twisted by a ring of power at that date. Even if we accept that the Elves' presence would have compromised the hobbits' stealth (I don't), still that stealth was already failing. And stealth won't feed you on a long road when you get hungry and stealth certainly won't get you to a valley that you don't know how to find. Frodo never would have made it to Rivendell without further aid. Gandalf knew it, Aragorn openly said it, and Gildor knew it too. |
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04-13-2008, 09:59 AM | #43 |
Elf Lord
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In addition, Gildor must have at one time felt an affinity for Middle Earth and/or its inhabitants. Otherwise, he would have left with most other Noldor after the War of Wrath. So either something changed for him (perhaps he really was beginning to fade) or something about his behavior doesn't add up.
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04-13-2008, 10:02 AM | #44 |
The Ñoldóran
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I think it's quite likely that he was starting to fade. After all, they'd been in Middle-earth for around 7,000 years at this point...
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04-13-2008, 10:07 AM | #45 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Yes, to prevent fading, one had to spend most of his time in the time-warped realms of Lorien and Rivendell, not to wander somewhere in the Shire or around Elostirion. If Gildor did so regularly, he was quite likely more faded than Galadriel.
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04-13-2008, 10:17 AM | #46 |
Elf Lord
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Not to change the subject, but is fading reversible? I mean, could one become rejuvinated and regain strength of body, even if only temporarily?
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04-13-2008, 10:28 AM | #47 |
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04-13-2008, 10:34 AM | #48 | ||
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As Eärniel and I have both said, people are judging Gildor with 20/20 hindsight. To repeat: he didn't know what was going to happen with the Hobbits later on down the line. In addition, they didn't ask for help: Quote:
And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?
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04-13-2008, 10:35 AM | #49 | |
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However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress ) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow. Maybe an Elf wearing one of the Nine would never fade. The hroar of Men were also strengthened, but they were never meant to endure long: thus they were preserved from ageing and death, but started fading like Elven hroar instead. |
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04-13-2008, 10:37 AM | #50 | |
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-13-2008, 10:50 AM | #51 | |||
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We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours. Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 04-13-2008 at 10:55 AM. |
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04-13-2008, 10:52 AM | #52 |
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04-13-2008, 10:54 AM | #53 |
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Because he's supposed to be one of the good guys. Good guys care about the plights of others, especially when those plights could mean the end of the world. Does Gildor have a selfish interest in helping the Hobbits? Nope. So the only reason he should help them would be unselfish, which he apparently isn't.
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04-13-2008, 10:55 AM | #54 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-13-2008, 10:57 AM | #55 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-13-2008, 11:11 AM | #56 |
Enting
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Gildor
I see nothing wrong with Gildor.
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04-13-2008, 11:25 AM | #57 | ||
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As for Bombadil, you have a point. If you want to say that Bombadil was selfish, you won't get an argument from me. Even so, Bombadil is something of an enigma and I'm not sure how much help he would have been outside of his own domain. Last edited by CAB : 04-13-2008 at 11:27 AM. |
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04-13-2008, 11:33 AM | #58 | |
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Depends. If we thought our argument would suit your side better, I doubt we'd be using it!
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04-13-2008, 11:41 AM | #59 | |
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Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race. My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 04-13-2008 at 11:42 AM. |
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04-13-2008, 12:10 PM | #60 | |
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I would argue that no one (including the hobbits) acted out of pure altruism because pure altruism is a myth. It doesn't exist. But I don't suppose this is the place to discuss that, even if I was inclined to. Given your defense of Gildor, I thought you might agree with me on this point. |
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