Illuvatar - Page 3

Andúril · 04-09-2002, 04:24 AM

If we call it those terms, then fundamentally, fate or destiny, or the events prescribed by them, are actually manifestation of Iluvatar's will.

Dwarven Sen · 04-09-2002, 05:45 AM

Wow, he truly is all powerful. He can control his own fate and everybody elses. Thats the kind of guy you want in charge of the world. It's good he is

Andúril · 04-09-2002, 06:35 AM

....omnipotent?

Dwarven Sen · 04-09-2002, 07:33 AM

Exactly. All powerful and in many different words.

bropous · 04-09-2002, 10:48 AM

Well, it works well in myth.

Andúril · 04-09-2002, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Thats the kind of guy you want in charge of the world.

Not if he's non-omnibenevolent, that is...

Wulažg · 04-09-2002, 04:05 PM

It's not that he isn't benevolent, he just wants the AinŸlidal‘ corrected to its former glory. He does nothing by his own devices after the creation of the Dwarves. Even taking Morgoth back in chains was done by F‘onw‘, the sone of Manw‘. Delegation seems to be a major part of this scenario. It means things get messed up sometimes but at least Illuvator doesn't get the blame.

bropous · 04-09-2002, 11:29 PM

That's the benefit of having underlings!

Welcome to the Moot, Wulažg.

Starr Polish · 04-09-2002, 11:39 PM

Er...going back to time.

Time has always seemed wavy and unsteady to me, but I think that in actuality, it is our psyche that is unsteady, and time is constant. When I put myself under extreme conditions/stress (ie competing in a long race in track) my mental functions just kind of stop keeping track of time. I rarely have any sense of time, speed, or even pain until I have lowered my stress level (in the case of running, about the time I can breath well enought to stand normally)

Dwarven Sen · 04-10-2002, 07:43 AM

I think we have indeed come to a decision that time is a confusing matter and that illuvatar is somehow connected to it.
I think he got a little sulky when the dwarves were created.But hey he's still in charge and he isn't prepared to hold grudges forever like the valar. I mean you have to be a little twisted to condemn noldor to the east for ever.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 04-10-2002, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwarven Sen
I think we have indeed come to a decision that time is a confusing matter and that illuvatar is somehow connected to it.
I think he got a little sulky when the dwarves were created.But hey he's still in charge and he isn't prepared to hold grudges forever like the valar. I mean you have to be a little twisted to condemn noldor to the east for ever.

The Valar didn't condem the Noldor to Middle-earth forever. The Noldor went to Middle-earth in defiance of the Valar, and the Valar placed a ban on their retun that was eventually lifted. The Valar never forsook the Noldor after they left, and they had pity for them and loved them still.

Andúril · 04-10-2002, 01:59 PM

I need clarification.

At the end of the Music of the Ainur, Iluvatar got angry and told Melkor that whatever he did, good or bad, would just end up being what Iluvatar wanted to happen. I may be wrong. I probably am.

But, seeing as it was only the Ainur present at the singing of the Music, does this will/fate thing apply to the rest of Arda's people?

Are elves, men, dwarves etc also destined to fulfill Iluvatar's doom? In my opinion no, because otherwise he would not have needed to intervene with the Numenoreans.

But then again, Eru intervened with Aule, so there goes my thining.

I must lie down now...

***azalea*** · 04-10-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Er...going back to time.

Time has always seemed wavy and unsteady to me, but I think that in actuality, it is our psyche that is unsteady, and time is constant. When I put myself under extreme conditions/stress (ie competing in a long race in track) my mental functions just kind of stop keeping track of time. I rarely have any sense of time, speed, or even pain until I have lowered my stress level (in the case of running, about the time I can breath well enought to stand normally)

Jumping in:
It is my belief that time does not exist, it is simply a human invention, since we are quite self-centered and must always order things (existance) into managable chunks. I believe CHANGE exists, but not time. I mean, animals just live their lives, change happens, and they die, more come to take their place (or not, as the case may be).
That's why I thought the whole Y2K was kind of funny, I mean those who thinking the end of the world was happening just because the calendar was turning to 2000. Really, that number just came form the fact that we use a base 10 number system.
We exist and live our lives within a framework of reality that we make sense of through our interactions with others. We help ourselves by counting how many times the sun rises and sets.

Wulažg · 04-10-2002, 05:04 PM

Regardless of whether time is a human(humanoid) idea/concept, it can still be manipulated with some degree of accuracy. One's or other's sense of time can be altered. If it can be altered then some things can be assumed about time.

***azalea*** · 04-10-2002, 06:55 PM

I was thinking about it in terms of the question posed earlier "Does Iluvatar have some kind of time framework" and that got me thinking about time existing at all outside of humanity. 'If humans didn't exist would time exist? If Arda, the sun and moon didn't exist, would time exist?'
I don't think Iluvatar would need a time framework as he is "omnipotent", in other words has the ability to control all (note that I didn't say he DOES control all). He exists AS time in some ways because of this control. I guess.

Andúril · 04-11-2002, 02:52 AM

But, if spatial change occurs, and someone/something is around to perceive this change, they would also have perceived a theoretical construct, or perhaps they unknowingly used this construct to make sense of change.

Obviously this construct depends entirely on the way the observer perceives the change. Humans perceive a point (n) which is now and then perceives point (o) which is now, so that point (n) is in the past (it is not now - instead it is prior to (o) in the sequence of events).

I do not doubt that if a being is able to comprehend and perceive change, that being also uses or senses a theoretical construct of time. However, if said being cannot comprehend or perceive change, that does not mean that there is no change. It just means that the being does not have this theoretical construct.

Consider a rock. Can the rock perceive change? Most probably not. Therefore the rock will not have a sense of time. But that does not mean that time does not exist.

If a universe underwent constant spatial change, but there was nothing in the universe to perceive the change, there would exist no time constructs, yet time would exist. How do I know this? Because I have already stated that spatial change is occuring. Because I have perceived the change.

Time = measure of change

If I can perceive change, I can sense time.

BeardofPants · 04-11-2002, 03:39 AM

Just to throw in another loophole, What if time is not linear? What if time exists as a series of possible outcomes? Who determines these outcomes?

Dwarven Sen · 04-11-2002, 03:44 AM

Time. If the sun did not exist, there would be no time. Elves and humans created time and so the ones that came before them, ie. the maiar, valar and eru, would not understand the concept and would therefore not be subjected to its limitations.
the rock would not understand time, but it would feel the change as its existance progressed. for example erosion.

Andúril · 04-11-2002, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Elves and humans created time and so the ones that came before them, ie. the maiar, valar and eru, would not understand the concept and would therefore not be subjected to its limitations.

As soon as some of the Ainur exited the Timeless Halls, they would become constrained to time. In fact, I submit that the Timeless Halls are in fact not timeless, because the Music of the Ainur exhibited change, therefore time. Iluvatar listened to the music - wasn't happy, lifted his hand. Listened some more - wasn't happy, lifted both hands. This is a sequence of events.

Anyway, even if time did not exist in the Timeless Halls, the Ainur who came to Arda were now no longer in that place. Nowhere to my knowledge does it mention any of the Ainur being above the limitations of time - they are aware of it just like everyone else is.

Quote:

What if time is not linear?

I'm not sure what you are saying. Could you explain? If time is not linear, then as a graph it would appear curved, or wavy - that would be very strange. But, it would only be strange if we as observers were only able to comprehend linear time. If time was wavy, and we percieved wavy time, I don't see anything strange or incoherent.

What would be incoherent is time running backwards (i.e. effect and cause) lol!

Quote:

What if time exists as a series of possible outcomes?Who determines these outcomes?

In other words, fate, or destiny? Is it necessary that someone determines these outcomes? But what does a particular sequence of events (a), as opposed to another, (b), have to do with time as a construct? Time applies to both (a) and (b).

Dwarven Sen · 04-11-2002, 04:44 AM

so many questions and so few answers.
surely the one who controls fate is indeed eru. i think that time is less similar to change, but to acceleration(velocity/change in time). this means that the timeless halls, althow changing, did not have a direction to change in. as velocity is a vector, this means that there was no velocity, and no acceleration, therefore no time.
if time is indeed nonlinear, and works more on a sine wave then it is constantly changing direction, therefore there was no velocity, and no acceleration, therefore no time. time has to be linear.

04-09-2002, 05:45 AM	#42
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Wow, he truly is all powerful. He can control his own fate and everybody elses. Thats the kind of guy you want in charge of the world. It's good he is __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

04-09-2002, 07:33 AM	#44
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Exactly. All powerful and in many different words. __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

04-09-2002, 10:48 AM	#45
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, it works well in myth. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

04-09-2002, 11:29 PM	#48
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	That's the benefit of having underlings! Welcome to the Moot, Wulažg. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

04-09-2002, 11:39 PM	#49
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Er...going back to time. Time has always seemed wavy and unsteady to me, but I think that in actuality, it is our psyche that is unsteady, and time is constant. When I put myself under extreme conditions/stress (ie competing in a long race in track) my mental functions just kind of stop keeping track of time. I rarely have any sense of time, speed, or even pain until I have lowered my stress level (in the case of running, about the time I can breath well enought to stand normally) __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

04-09-2002, 04:24 AM	#41
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	If we call it those terms, then fundamentally, fate or destiny, or the events prescribed by them, are actually manifestation of Iluvatar's will.

04-09-2002, 06:35 AM	#43
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	....omnipotent?

04-09-2002, 04:05 PM	#47
Wulažg Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 306	It's not that he isn't benevolent, he just wants the AinŸlidal‘ corrected to its former glory. He does nothing by his own devices after the creation of the Dwarves. Even taking Morgoth back in chains was done by F‘onw‘, the sone of Manw‘. Delegation seems to be a major part of this scenario. It means things get messed up sometimes but at least Illuvator doesn't get the blame.

04-10-2002, 07:43 AM	#50
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	I think we have indeed come to a decision that time is a confusing matter and that illuvatar is somehow connected to it. I think he got a little sulky when the dwarves were created.But hey he's still in charge and he isn't prepared to hold grudges forever like the valar. I mean you have to be a little twisted to condemn noldor to the east for ever. __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

04-10-2002, 01:59 PM	#52
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	I need clarification. At the end of the Music of the Ainur, Iluvatar got angry and told Melkor that whatever he did, good or bad, would just end up being what Iluvatar wanted to happen. I may be wrong. I probably am. But, seeing as it was only the Ainur present at the singing of the Music, does this will/fate thing apply to the rest of Arda's people? Are elves, men, dwarves etc also destined to fulfill Iluvatar's doom? In my opinion no, because otherwise he would not have needed to intervene with the Numenoreans. But then again, Eru intervened with Aule, so there goes my thining. I must lie down now...

04-10-2002, 05:04 PM	#54
Wulažg Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 306	Regardless of whether time is a human(humanoid) idea/concept, it can still be manipulated with some degree of accuracy. One's or other's sense of time can be altered. If it can be altered then some things can be assumed about time.

04-10-2002, 06:55 PM	#55
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I was thinking about it in terms of the question posed earlier "Does Iluvatar have some kind of time framework" and that got me thinking about time existing at all outside of humanity. 'If humans didn't exist would time exist? If Arda, the sun and moon didn't exist, would time exist?' I don't think Iluvatar would need a time framework as he is "omnipotent", in other words has the ability to control all (note that I didn't say he DOES control all). He exists AS time in some ways because of this control. I guess.

04-11-2002, 02:52 AM	#56
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	But, if spatial change occurs, and someone/something is around to perceive this change, they would also have perceived a theoretical construct, or perhaps they unknowingly used this construct to make sense of change. Obviously this construct depends entirely on the way the observer perceives the change. Humans perceive a point (n) which is now and then perceives point (o) which is now, so that point (n) is in the past (it is not now - instead it is prior to (o) in the sequence of events). I do not doubt that if a being is able to comprehend and perceive change, that being also uses or senses a theoretical construct of time. However, if said being cannot comprehend or perceive change, that does not mean that there is no change. It just means that the being does not have this theoretical construct. Consider a rock. Can the rock perceive change? Most probably not. Therefore the rock will not have a sense of time. But that does not mean that time does not exist. If a universe underwent constant spatial change, but there was nothing in the universe to perceive the change, there would exist no time constructs, yet time would exist. How do I know this? Because I have already stated that spatial change is occuring. Because I have perceived the change. Time = measure of change If I can perceive change, I can sense time.

04-11-2002, 03:39 AM	#57
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Just to throw in another loophole, What if time is not linear? What if time exists as a series of possible outcomes? Who determines these outcomes? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

04-11-2002, 03:44 AM	#58
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Time. If the sun did not exist, there would be no time. Elves and humans created time and so the ones that came before them, ie. the maiar, valar and eru, would not understand the concept and would therefore not be subjected to its limitations. the rock would not understand time, but it would feel the change as its existance progressed. for example erosion. __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

04-11-2002, 04:44 AM	#60
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	so many questions and so few answers. surely the one who controls fate is indeed eru. i think that time is less similar to change, but to acceleration(velocity/change in time). this means that the timeless halls, althow changing, did not have a direction to change in. as velocity is a vector, this means that there was no velocity, and no acceleration, therefore no time. if time is indeed nonlinear, and works more on a sine wave then it is constantly changing direction, therefore there was no velocity, and no acceleration, therefore no time. time has to be linear. __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!	ringbearer	Lord of the Rings Books	166	10-08-2010 12:54 PM
Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth	Sister Golden Hair	Middle Earth	278	04-20-2008 11:21 AM
Feanor's oath: I just don't get it ...	Jon S.	The Silmarillion	34	09-18-2007 05:23 AM
Tolkien Lover Anonymous 3, The Sil(ly)marillion	Willow Oran	RPG Forum	583	11-27-2005 10:06 PM
Eru Iluvatar = God?	Gwaimir Windgem	Middle Earth	23	07-22-2003 09:04 AM