03-24-2005, 06:45 AM | #41 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-24-2005, 06:50 AM | #42 | |
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Olmer - I've begun work on a little more of my 'histories' - nothing really finished to show yet, some outlines and the beginning of a story - but I AM moving on it.
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03-24-2005, 09:09 AM | #43 | |
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As I told in my previous message, there are some Olmer's points that I can't accept.
And one of them is putting the blame of Isildur's death on Elrond. First of all, do not forget where Isildur was going: to Imladris! If Elrond wanted Isildur dead, it would have been much easier to murder him there. But, though I am not too fond of Galadriel, still I have a high respect for Elrond. I don't think him capable of base treachery. What were Elrond's feelings at the time of the Disaster at Gladden? Elrond might have wished to keep the ring himself or to give it to Galadriel or Cirdan for keeping. He certainly understood the danger of leaving it in Isildur's hands, danger both to the bearers of the Three and to Isildur himself. He might have WISHED Isildur dead. But from that to actually murdering the man himself ...I don't imagine Elrond in this role. Quote:
telling that there were eyewitnesses to the fight (Ochtar and his companion, Elendur's esquire, who heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting and some late Woodmen rescuers). "The story of the last hours of Isildur and death was due to surmise: but well-founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the ring, secondly that his sword etc. had been found on the bank above the Gladden, thirdly that there have been orcs at the western bank armed with bows, and fourthly, that Isildur and the ring separately or together must have been lost in the river" At the time of the counsel (Oct.3018) Elrond knew that the Ring had been found in the river but no traces of Isildur were found. So, he surmised that Isildur lost his ring in the water. -Why "the ring has betrayed him"? - A surmise again, but quite plausible. Didn't it betray Gollum? And the ring must have hated Isildur. So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer. |
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03-24-2005, 09:16 AM | #44 | |
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03-24-2005, 09:27 AM | #45 | |
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This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions. Of course - they were not Celebrimbor and had not made the Three - so maybe they were not even 'in tune with' what the Three were telling them of the One. Perhaps Elrond could have become aware of Isildur's plight though, because of the duress that Isildur was under - and maybe even because of his association with the man. Anyway - that seems another good opportunity for a 'source' of what happened to Isildur, but Tolkien doesn't mention it. And gordis - don't worry about Olmer. I don't think he'll mind that you're not in COMPLETE agreement with him. I imagine it's very cheering for him to have someone who even shares a part of his perspective on these matters. Something you said earlier makes me wonder though... regardless of for what useage, why would the Elves NOT have searched extensively in that part of the Gladden for the One - it became apparent that Isildur had likely been lost there even in year 3 of Third Age - when he was a no-show at Rivendell. It's not the sort of thing I expect they would just want to leave lying around for whomever might find it. I just see that as more of a 'gap' in Tolkien's history though - not so much an Elf-conspiracy.
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03-24-2005, 09:31 AM | #46 | |||
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And if the Elves had any reason to believe that ORCS had plundered Isildur's body, then they would have chased them to the far corners of ME, even going to war again to get the Ring. No, they had reasons to think that the Ring was in the river, and that suited them, more or less. |
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03-24-2005, 09:37 AM | #47 | |||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-24-2005, 12:20 PM | #48 | ||
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As for the Ring-detection issues in Hobbit and LOTR, I have typed a long answer, but I realize it has nothing to do with Isildur. Where may I post it? Quote:
From this POV you are totally correct. Tolkien has never published the UT, so there are some loose ends. I think that when Tolkien wrote about Saruman's finding of Isildur's bones, he did not see the implication: that it proved that the elves had not looked in the river. I have nothing against this approach, only I am not overmuch interested in it. Much more appealing to me is the HISTORICAL APPROACH. Here we try to treat LOTR and UT as historical sources. Tolkien himself loved to play the game. He had LOTR and The Hobbit published and was filling the gaps and finding explanations in his later writings. He was trying not to contradict published sources, but only to expand them. From this POV the above explanation of elves's inactivity does not apply. We have to assume that either the elves were very lazy or there was a conspiracy. |
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03-24-2005, 03:22 PM | #49 | |
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03-24-2005, 04:09 PM | #50 | |
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All the objects of power were a great temptation to everyone around (Silmarils, Nauglamir, Arkenston, the palantiri). I think ALL the rings of Power were a temptation, not only the One and the Nine. Train died in Dol Guldur forgetting everything exept the Ring he once posessed. |
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03-24-2005, 04:13 PM | #51 | |
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BTW, Valandil, I have posted my reply to your ring-detection question in the other tread, about the "Shadow of the past" chapter. |
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03-25-2005, 05:03 AM | #52 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-25-2005, 03:59 PM | #53 | |
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The three were less tempting than the One just because they were less powerful. I ask again why would Sauron make his very own precious Master ring tempting? It was not meant to ensnare any others. He never wished to part with it, he never expected to loose it. He just could not help it being tempting to others. And why would Feanor make the Silmarils or the Palantiri tempting? He could not help it either. And the bloodbath around the Silmarils was greater than that around the rings just because they were more powerful and therefore more tempting. Yes, we have not seen Elves fight over the Three. But we have not seen Elves fight over the One either. They were able to resist the temptation, but it does not mean they were not tempted. They may have resisted the temptation of the Three. Galadriel kept Nenya invisible on her finger. Why? Who could have seen it but the elves of Lorien? And we can't be sure that nobody has ever tried to seize her ring. We know very little of the history of the rings, nothing about the early history of the Nine, nothing about the 6 out of the Seven. And about the 9 Rings: surely Nazgul were tempted not by shiny thingies but by the power the rings contained. The same is true for the One: Boromir coveted not a nice-looking golden ring, but the Power he needed to defend Gondor. I see no difference in these cases. |
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03-26-2005, 01:28 AM | #54 | ||||||||
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I welcome disagreements, as long as they backed up by quotes from the books and not by the categorical words "Tolkien did not mean THAT!", because Tolkien did not know himself what did he mean by writing this or that. But one thing should be definitely clarified : Tolkien DID mean to have his work as a history, which , as he felt, had been “imperfectly” “recorded” by him, as he was “translating” it from hobbit’s point of view. Quote:
And suddenly such chance just fell down on her lap! Gandalf , an appointed overseer of the quest, got out of the picture right in the time, when the Ring arrived in Lorien. And she is taking the reins in her hands, improvising on the run She wants to preserve the Ring, but at the same time she does not want to give Sauron a reason to suspect that the Ring is in Lorien’s safekeeping. . Her plan is elegant and deceitful. She detains the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed). In mean time the important information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship had been “slipped out” to the ears of enemies. Quote:
One more point to believe that something was not ” kosher” in the whole business of Isildur’s death. Quote:
I really sympathize with Elrond, because his role in the elves-men struggle is not easy one. He is the most contradictive and tragic figure in ME. Less inclined to the power lust, he, probably, understood the danger of the Ring better, than so sure of her own resistance to it Galadriel, but being not 100% elf and just Gil-Galad’s herald, he was not the one who had the last word to say. After the death of Gil-Galad he became independent in his little realm, but Galadriel found the way to order him around. Interesting to note that no more than a hundred years later after the incident on the Gladden Fields he is taking for wife Celebrian, daughter of high and mighty Noldorin princess . For more than 1600 years his love had been unrequited, and all of the sudden such change of heart. What did he do for snobbish Galadriel to get such privilege? Quote:
theirs ordeals. I have reason to believe that they had been brought to Imladris and not by their own will. Quote:
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Nevertheless, if they were so much aware of Isildur’s strife it doesn’t explain theirs inactivity and unwillingness to help. Quote:
Valandil, I am glad that you decided on to “widen horizons” of yours “Letters” of Arthedain history. Coming as through the eyes of witness of the last days of Northern kingdom, it gives for the rise and fall of Arnor more dimensional view and more feeling . I think that Tolkien dedicated undeservingly little time for the history of the northern descendants of Numenorians. Based on Tolkien text, you are extending the information about such intriguing subject. I think some day it would be a very good source of information for some people, who wouldn’t be satisfied with just a couple of pages in the Appendix. Last edited by Olmer : 03-26-2005 at 10:40 AM. |
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03-26-2005, 04:44 AM | #55 | ||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-26-2005, 09:21 AM | #56 | |
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I also think the Seven were probably tempting - the Dwarves jealously guarded the knowledge of who held them, such that None among them knew that Thror had given his to Thrain before he set off for Moria. I can sure imagine that the Nine were tempting - and that their bearers perhaps had some challenges to their ownership in the days they were still somewhat human. However - their rings also made them powerful enough to win out - and likely twisted them into being plenty suspicious of those around them who might be interested in 'taking over' - in fact, they likely would have become somewhat paranoid and made sure to get rid of anyone who even gave them the slightest perceived hint that they might be a threat (and perhaps even opened their minds a bit to the wearer, such that he would know for sure if they DID intend to try something funny). I think that all the Rings of Power would have been likely sources of temptation.
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03-26-2005, 09:35 AM | #57 | |||||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-26-2005, 12:43 PM | #58 | |
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I am afraid Elrond was too tight-lipped when speaking at the Counsil (and understandably so). He did cause the flood at the Ford, with the help of Gandalf. That was clearly Ring-magic. Galadriel warded off attacks from Dol Guldur. And Gandalf fought the 9 nazgul at Weathertop (with lightning) and he killed the Barlog. Perhaps the rings were more defensive than offensive weapons, but weapons they were. The three (Nenya in particular) also enabled the bearer to make palantiri-like devices (the Mirror of Galadriel), to forsee the future to some extent and to "kindle hearts" (Narya). ANYONE would be tempted to have these abilities. But you are right, the main power of the Three was "to preserve all things unstained", to slow the time, to prevent Elves's fading These powers were extremely tempting specifically for Elves. Men or Dwarves or orcs were not concerned with these problems. Though for a man possessing one of the Three meant immortality, and perhaps one not resulting in wraithdom. Not tempting eh ? Last edited by Gordis : 03-26-2005 at 02:32 PM. |
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03-26-2005, 12:48 PM | #59 | |||
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For now I want to establish the list of the charges against Galadriel that you have put forward. They are scattered in various treads, so please check and tell me if I've missed (or misinterpreted) anything. Case: Olmer against Galadriel: 1. At the time of Isildur's death, Galadriel wanted to KEEP the ring herself without wielding it, in order to be able to use Nenya. Therefore she ordered Elrond to kill Isildur and bring her the Ring 2. In TA 3018 she still wanted to keep the One Ring, but wanted to get it without anyone noticing, especially to keep it secret from Elrond, the Fellowship, Sauron and Saruman. 3. At the time of the War of the Rings Galadriel was the most interested person in all the ME to keep the One Ring safe (except Sauron himself). With Nenya she has accomplished more than anybody else and with the destruction of the One all will be lost. 4. She was ready to sacrifice all of Gondor to Mordor to acheive her ends. She probably presumed that after the war with Gondor, Mordor would be weakened and would not attack Lorien for some time. 5. In the second half of the TA Lorien provided food for Moria orcs in exchange for gems and mithril. 6. Galadriel let all the orcs (200+) pursuing the fellowship pass through Lorien. 7. Galadriel detained the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed). 8. Galadriel “slipped out” the information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship to the ears of enemies: Sauron and Saruman (?) 9. Galadriel sent a secret company of Lorien Elves to get the Ring from Frodo at Part Galen As far as I understand, the events at Part Galen seem staged to you because: 1. Three different companies of orcs converged at the same spot. 2.The number of Moria orcs is the same before Lorien and in Rohan (200) 3. Sauron sent 40 orcs while Saruman sent 80. 4 The nazgul remained on the other shore of the Anduin and never intervened in the fight Is that right, Olmer? Last edited by Gordis : 03-26-2005 at 12:50 PM. |
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03-26-2005, 03:16 PM | #60 | |
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The ring ment to be found so it sliped from Isildors grasp, thus killing him.
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