10-26-2004, 12:55 PM | #41 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lief, Lief - you appear, with your sunny disposition and thoughtful posts - then disappear School's just too much right now?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2004, 01:26 PM | #42 | |
The Blobbit
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What do you think of similar doctrines to Christianity, such as Islam and Judaism? Do you regard them as believing in the same God as Christianity? Does accepting this mean that thye are equal? And does equality not diminish the validity of the belief in Christianity?
(I was pleased to read on another board (one for kids 12-19, even better) someone comment that: Quote:
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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10-26-2004, 01:28 PM | #43 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What do YOU think?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2004, 01:58 PM | #44 |
The Blobbit
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I think I asked the question and can play the 'you first' card.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
10-26-2004, 02:32 PM | #45 |
Elf Lord
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Since there isn't an identified hot seat on this thread, I'll respond to Janny's question.
"What do you think of similar doctrines to Christianity, such as Islam and Judaism? Do you regard them as believing in the same God as Christianity? Does accepting this mean that thye are equal? And does equality not diminish the validity of the belief in Christianity?" The three religions you mention are monotheistic, that is they assert that there is one God, not a plurality of gods. They differed historically from polytheistic religions by asserting that reality. There are vast differences between them in some respects and some points of similarity, but not much outright agreement regarding the nature of the monotheistic God they assert. Knowledgable profess-ors of each faith would be able to discuss those differences, but they could seem very similar to someone outside the tradition(s). The faiths mentioned are not equal if you mean that at root they say the same things. Moral codes are pretty much the same throughout the world in all religious and even philosophical traditions. But the response to the moral codes is not the same, and you begin to see more clearly the differences. So they are not equal in the sense of what it takes to adhere to the moral codes and satisfy God's requirements. Equality does not exist between them in these key conceptions and responses. There is no diminishment of the truth of Christianity because we live in a society which allows free expression of religious belief (notable exceptions are child sacrifice and similar systems). I could probably bore you with details but you can certainly head my answers in the way you'd like to go.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-26-2004, 04:11 PM | #46 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Can I play the "skip" card?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-26-2004, 04:55 PM | #47 |
The Blobbit
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No! Answer the question!
Thank-you, inked. Would you then say that you are not worshipping the same God as them?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
10-26-2004, 05:33 PM | #48 |
Elf Lord
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Janny,
To be truthful, I would not be worshipping the same conception of God as they are. That is from my human perspective which will never comprehend God totally. The God I worship has invaded space and time and become Incarnate, had dirty diapers, and played by the same rules as were established for us. This is quite different from most Jewish understanding (yes, there are Messianic Jews) and at odds with Islam. The theology gets difficult, but, at the risk of offending people, my view is that Judaism is not yet complete and Islam is a Christian heresy which denies the Incarnation. So, if you can reconcile those disparities and pretend that "its" all one God, I would say that the concept of God would have to be so amorphus as to be meaningless. Now, that doesn't mean I know who is pleasing to God, but it does mean that I believe that anyone who is pleasing to Him is made so through the mediation of His Son, Jesus of Nazareth. And it means that I am called to obedience like His Son's and to be conformed to His image - "who considered his equality with God not a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, and took the form of a servant, and gave himself up to death on a tree; wherefore God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord - things on the earth, and under the earth, and in the heavens." (St. Paul, Ephesians, paraphrased from memory, 1st chapter). I believe that if you asked Jewish people of faith and Muslims is that what they believe, they would say no. So, no, I don't think we have the same conception of God.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-26-2004, 05:39 PM | #49 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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And needing isn't necessarily a bad thing But again, I think it's more of a "fact thing" than some evil plot by God to keep us down Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2004 at 05:44 PM. |
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10-26-2004, 05:49 PM | #50 | |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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10-26-2004, 06:17 PM | #51 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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whoops - double post...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2004 at 06:29 PM. |
10-26-2004, 06:26 PM | #52 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Your Janniness - you speak, and I obey! (my husband will be contacting you soon to see how you manage this so easily! )
I would pretty much agree with what inked said - "Judaism is not yet complete and Islam is a Christian heresy which denies the Incarnation." I think the best description of Judaism is what Lewis said - roughly, it was to pound into the heads of people 2 things - that there is one God, and that He is holy. It was preparation for the coming of Jesus - it was not a complete thing. Now Judaism has also added regulation upon regulation (the Mishnah, I think it's called) with different rabbbi's interpretations ("you cannot walk farther than "x" on the Sabbath", etc), which Jesus dismissed as false teaching. Jesus said that the Pharisees made all these little rules up and ignored the heart of the teaching. For example, they would tithe, even on the spices they had in their house, but let their parents go hungry. And they said that Jesus healing a person on the Sabbath was "work" and so it was illegal - really hard-hearted and totally missing the purpose of the Sabbath and the heart of God! So I think Judaism is also wrong in that it has ADDED human opinion to God's revelation, including what they think God desires, which reflects on who He is - so it's not the same God as Christianity describes. As far as Islam ... From what I understand, in Islam, the doctrine of the Trinity is considered blasphemy, which means God is VERY different. ALso, Jesus is not the Son of God, Jesus is a prophet like Abraham and is below Mohammed, Jesus didn't really die, God is impersonal (He is not called "Father"), and salvation is totally dependant upon a person's own acts (not provided for by Jesus according to the will of the Father). This, again, means a very different God.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2004 at 06:29 PM. |
10-26-2004, 06:30 PM | #53 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-26-2004, 06:42 PM | #54 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Have fun!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2004 at 06:44 PM. |
10-26-2004, 06:57 PM | #55 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
If the same rules set down by the Pharisees are still around today - in words and intent, it's worth noting that it's certainly not all of Judaism.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-26-2004, 06:59 PM | #56 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, I saw that movie - The Chosen - it was great!
GTG!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2004, 07:13 PM | #57 | ||
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They made a movie out of it!!! (The book also has a sequel - The Promise.)
I have to go too. Really this time!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-26-2004, 07:32 PM | #58 |
Elf Lord
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Janny,
I tried to make it as clear as I could that the differing conceptions of God really meant something. If I believe as I do, and a Muslim believes as he does, and a Jewish person as they do, then we have radically different ideas of God within monotheism. By those definitions, it is not the same GOD. By His own revelation of Himself in the Incarnation, it is not the same GOD. Christian claims are really quite radical.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-26-2004, 08:10 PM | #59 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Free Will slavery
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That's actually why I often find it extremely arrogant when nonbelievers say that God could not have any good plan behind the evil and pain that exist in the world. Quote:
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We are not commended for any of our own works. In fact, it is written in scripture that when we come before God, we should say, "we are poor and unworthy servants. We have only done our duty." Everything we do is supposed to be to God's glory, not to ours. It says in Isaiah that "our righteous acts are as filthy rags." God's righteous acts through us are what are worth commending. Therefore we can truly say that we are poor and unworthy servants. We're not being modest, when we say that. We're telling the truth. You know, R*an, you actually act out of accord with your own words whenever you sit down to pray. Let's say it's at a friend's house. You thank her for the food, but then you also thank God for the food! If it's your friend's grace that you have the food, you should be thanking only your friend, as she deserves. But no, God predestined that you receive that food at that time, so you thank him for that also. It's not just your friend giving you the food- God also is giving it to you. Just as he gives you everything else that you encounter in your life. Quote:
I don't see how this is an evidence for free will, though. Quote:
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I still think that it's evident from scripture that this type of free will isn't a true definition of freedom at all, though. Jesus said that everything he said, he heard from the Father. It's clear from scripture that the more submitted to God we are, the less will we have that's free from God, the more free we are! So I really don't see how you can think that freedom from God is such a desirable thing. We do have the freedom to act according to the natures God has given us, though. Except when sin is involved. That keeps us from acting according to the nature God has given us, but makes us a slave. Quote:
God's influence isn't overwhelming us, or forcing us. Neither does it make us robots. We don't have the freedom to act outside of our natures. Neither does God. This lack of freedom does not make us robots. That everything comes from God and is chosen by God doesn't make us robots either. Jesus Incarnate was not a robot, IMO. In fact, freedom comes from submission. A paradoxical but marvelous Christian truth.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-26-2004, 08:13 PM | #60 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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