Dress codes.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Yes, actually I do. You currently attend university... correct? Or am I thinking of someone else? Do you wear a uniform there? If not, do you find that wearing mufti detracts from the value of the lesson/class?

No, we don't wear uniforms at the university. By the time you reach university I think the problems a teacher and students experience with lack of focus and discipline are largely gone. If you don't pay attention at our university the professor will just chuck you out, carefree as to whether you ever return or not. Pretty simple.
In school, middle school and high school however, focus and discipline is a whole lot more important. The same students go to the same classrooms every day and meet with the same teacher(s). It's a daily routine, 5 days a week. That's the situation where a uniform dress code and a corresponding respect for it, comes in. I repeat: it's not the clothes themselves.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Lol and the same goes here. It's an equality of kinds: then I specify.. focus and productivity in the classroom. 30 students in a classroom, all wearing the same thing, streamlines the eyes, and then ears, to look ahead. You want to argue against that?

I have to disagree. My own personal experience, brief as it was, involved more staring at the cute people and being less interested in what they were wearing. I wasn't any less likely to stare at them during the school day than I was outside of school when they were wearing street clothes.

Although I have no experience in a non-college non-uniform environment as a student, my personal experience in the private high school was that the uniforms did not provide equality in status at all. The kids all managed to figure out roughly what monetary status their classmates lived at, and uniforms did absolutely nothing to promote respect---there were plenty of fights breaking out from people being jerks to each other, although they rarely evolved beyond some shoulder punching or intimidation.

Even banning things like Mp3 players didn't do anything to even out the status. It was obvious who came from money families, and the kids were usually interested in finding out who those people were.



Possibly less valid, but in my experience teaching the elementary level, public school kids, I would start out with a group of three kids and they were usually quick to insult each other for making mistakes or for not understanding a concept.

The only way they came to show respect for each other was if I smacked down on their negative behavior and made it clear that I wouldn't tolerate it. Eventually some of the kids who had been problems at the start even began to complement each other, although I don't know if it was sincere or not. I took what I could get, though .



Honestly I am not of the opinion that a dress code has much of an impact on how students act, or has much to do with nazis . I believe it has more to do with the environment they are put into and the examples they see coming from authority figures.

Now I will say that schools who have dress codes do, from what I've heard, tend to be the ones who are more interested in having good teachers and in setting that good example... So I don't think the dress code makes the effect, I think it's the overall dedication to quality.

However that is purely conjecture on my part.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I have to disagree. My own personal experience, brief as it was, involved more staring at the cute people and being less interested in what they were wearing. I wasn't any less likely to stare at them during the school day than I was outside of school when they were wearing street clothes.

Although I have no experience in a non-college non-uniform environment as a student, my personal experience in the private high school was that the uniforms did not provide equality in status at all. The kids all managed to figure out roughly what monetary status their classmates lived at, and uniforms did absolutely nothing to promote respect---there were plenty of fights breaking out from people being jerks to each other, although they rarely evolved beyond some shoulder punching or intimidation.

Even banning things like Mp3 players didn't do anything to even out the status. It was obvious who came from money families, and the kids were usually interested in finding out who those people were.



Possibly less valid, but in my experience teaching the elementary level, public school kids, I would start out with a group of three kids and they were usually quick to insult each other for making mistakes or for not understanding a concept.

The only way they came to show respect for each other was if I smacked down on their negative behavior and made it clear that I wouldn't tolerate it. Eventually some of the kids who had been problems at the start even began to complement each other, although I don't know if it was sincere or not. I took what I could get, though .



Honestly I am not of the opinion that a dress code has much of an impact on how students act, or has much to do with nazis . I believe it has more to do with the environment they are put into and the examples they see coming from authority figures.

Now I will say that schools who have dress codes do, from what I've heard, tend to be the ones who are more interested in having good teachers and in setting that good example... So I don't think the dress code makes the effect, I think it's the overall dedication to quality.

However that is purely conjecture on my part.

Again, it's not the clothes themselves. It's not a matter of wearing normal clothes outside the school building and then a sudden change in behaviour by putting on a uniform and walking into the building. Obviously.

It's neither a given success. Schools with uniforms don't always do better than those without.
The point I've been getting at a few times now is that if the school authority is actively engaged in trying to promote mutual respect and a conformity of behaviour (no special treatment, no tolerance for going across the line), and promote this through wearing a uniform (which is the most visibly daily reminder a student can get), it can be a healthy environment. One that I've seen work.
Likewise, I see that if that particular school authority hadn't been so active the uniforms wouldn't have made an iota of difference!

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

In school, middle school and high school however, focus and discipline is a whole lot more important. The same students go to the same classrooms every day and meet with the same teacher(s). It's a daily routine, 5 days a week. That's the situation where a uniform dress code and a corresponding respect for it, comes in. I repeat: it's not the clothes themselves.

OK, I understand what you are saying with regards to the links between the dress code and the promotion of a certain set of behaviours, but I find myself still disagreeing with you are whether the dress code or lack thereof, value-adds to the educational experience. Like I said, I've attended both. From my POV, having a uniform made little or no difference to the high school experience.

Additionally, because y'know, the whole nature of teen-dom is to rebel, bitch 'n moan, and well, moan some more, I actually found that teens could sometimes spend an inordinate amount of time moaning about regulations, instead of ... well, getting on with being educated. I myself spent a goodly amount of time campaigning to get doc martens accepted onto the list of acceptable footwear (to no avail, lol).

Finally, I'm not entirely sure that it's healthy to foster a 'corresponding respect' for the uniform. It's almost like you're arguing for making a bunch of sheeple. Surely, learning should be about embracing differences, finding out what each child is good at, and nurturing that, rather than making cookie cutter clones ala Starship Troopers with the whole same-y uniform conforming thing?

[GrayMouser]

In Taiwan, the kids wear uniforms- I have no idea whether it makes a difference in behaviour or not.

Of course, being Taiwan, they manage to mess it up as much as possible. The kids wear uniforms on Monday and Thursdays, sweats (also unique to each school) on Tuesdays and Fridays, and their own clothes on Wednesdays- except half the classes are reversed, wearing uniforms on Tuesdays and Fridays, sweats on Mondays and Thursdays. They also change days every now and then for special events.

Raising three boys in different grades and trying to keep track of who's wearing what on which day....

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

OK, I understand what you are saying with regards to the links between the dress code and the promotion of a certain set of behaviours, but I find myself still disagreeing with you are whether the dress code or lack thereof, value-adds to the educational experience. Like I said, I've attended both. From my POV, having a uniform made little or no difference to the high school experience.

Additionally, because y'know, the whole nature of teen-dom is to rebel, bitch 'n moan, and well, moan some more, I actually found that teens could sometimes spend an inordinate amount of time moaning about regulations, instead of ... well, getting on with being educated. I myself spent a goodly amount of time campaigning to get doc martens accepted onto the list of acceptable footwear (to no avail, lol).

Finally, I'm not entirely sure that it's healthy to foster a 'corresponding respect' for the uniform. It's almost like you're arguing for making a bunch of sheeple. Surely, learning should be about embracing differences, finding out what each child is good at, and nurturing that, rather than making cookie cutter clones ala Starship Troopers with the whole same-y uniform conforming thing?

I can tell you, from my last year in high school, at a uniformed school, that the teenage rebelling was in now way hampered by the uniform. This isn't a magical thing you know. It's not another brick in the wall scenario. It's not nazi youth. It's a dress code. The people I graduated with are as likely to wear kaki-shorts in a ball as they are to wear a uniform. The hint of brainwashing, is absent.

Neither did any of us at the school go around complaining. It was quite simple. We had learned that the uniform was something you didn't f*** with. Keep it neat and nice for each day. Guys should have their ties in order. And walking around in a suit in the school time gave everyone an extra amount of dignity. The teenage behaviour didn't go away, nor should it. But the focus and discipline, promoted through wearing a respectable garment and looking neat, worked!

[BeardofPants]

Hmm. My intermediate (middle school) uniform consisted of trackpants in winter. A plaid skirt in summer. No dignity to be found there. Perhaps you can claim dignity in YOUR uniforms, but ours were ghastly polo shirts & ill-fitting skirts. We weren't allowed to wear warmer clothes in winter @ high school. It was skirts all year through. Dignity was the LAST thing I was thinking of during the winter when my legs were blue.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Hmm. My intermediate (middle school) uniform consisted of trackpants in winter. A plaid skirt in summer. No dignity to be found there. Perhaps you can claim dignity in YOUR uniforms, but ours were ghastly polo shirts & ill-fitting skirts. We weren't allowed to wear warmer clothes in winter @ high school. It was skirts all year through. Dignity was the LAST thing I was thinking of during the winter when my legs were blue.

Hehe alright, there we have it. That kind of clothing isn't exactly dignifying is it. The clothes I wore was a suit, with a corresponding tie (only one tie. Lose that tie and big trouble), a posh grey sweater and black formal shoes. On top of that the words Bonitas, Disciplina and Scientia were written on the right-hand side of our suit and sweater. Grace (Or honour),Discipline and Knowledge. As always, it's not wearing any uniform, it's what the uniform represents.

[Mari]

*is still wondering if schools that can't get their students to behave normally can get them to believe in uniforms*
As Andreas says, uniforms represent something or at least they are supposed to, but if schools want to adopt them, they'd better start with teaching kids the right mind set to learn to respect the uniform. But if they manage to teach them those things, the use for the uniform is basically gone?
I'm just thinking confused thoughts here. Feel free to rip them apart

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Mari

But if they manage to teach them those things, the use for the uniform is basically gone?

Yes, but no. The ideal situation would of course be a school where anyone wore whatever they wanted and everyone managed to abide by some higher school standard without the need to be constantly reminded of it, something not only to aspire to, but easy to follow with your fellow student without feeling nerdy or different.
The no comes because, with a uniform present, both newcomers and current students have something physical to attach dignity and respect to. We are a cosmetically-concerned species, and so, like I said earlier, the best daily reminder (because students do need to be reminded over and over) is a uniform. A uniform that looks good, that students can feel comfortable in, and which displays a meaning. That's the simplicity of it.

I'll stretch my thinking a bit further and say that with a uniform, a part of school life that stands out, and if the school authority manages to promote a positive culture around wearing this uniform, it creates the sort of tradition that I think every single school should have. A school that finds a healthy identity has come a long way. Of course, you don't need a uniform to do this (we have private schools in Norway that are examples of this), but the budget of most schools is meagre and the average school in the world is for the economically average boy and girl. A simple, yet good-looking set of robes with a corresponding positive culture, can do a lot to elevate many dirtpoor schools into something different. So to be clear, it's not the uniforms themselves, but what they can represent and the meaning the school puts into it. Completely up to the school. Nothing comes easy. Just my ideas though.

[Mari]

Oh, sounds reasonable I guess.
You know, this is my Dutchness kicking in, but here secondary schools are divided in 6 levels. The discipline problems are usually only in the lower level schools and sometimes there is some tension between say level 1 and level 6. If the schools have uniforms it becomes very easy to identify at what level a person is attending school. I think here it might promote not equality, but stereotyping and the rise of 'classes'.

But America doesn't have those levels and neither does Japan (though Japan does have a strong classifying system in which one school is considered to be better then the other). How is New Zealand and Norway in that respect?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Mari

Oh, sounds reasonable I guess.
You know, this is my Dutchness kicking in, but here secondary schools are divided in 6 levels. The discipline problems are usually only in the lower level schools and sometimes there is some tension between say level 1 and level 6. If the schools have uniforms it becomes very easy to identify at what level a person is attending school. I think here it might promote not equality, but stereotyping and the rise of 'classes'.

But America doesn't have those levels and neither does Japan (though Japan does have a strong classifying system in which one school is considered to be better then the other). How is New Zealand and Norway in that respect?

I didn't quite get the Dutch school system, but I assume you mean there are 6 different levels, quality-wise?
In Norway it's fairy straightforward. Children's school (age 6-7 up to 13 approx.), Middle School and then High School. All schools are equal on paper. All schools are free, and from this autumn (I believe) all books are free in Childrens School, Middle School and High School.
*There are a few private schools and a string of schools called the Rudolph Steiner schools (a more liberal way of schooling), but they are few and far between*

[Mari]

Elementary and Secondary school is free here as well (books aren't), but yes, there are 6 levels going from vocational schools (?) where you learn practical things to academical schools with a lot of theory, preparation for university and in the case of level 1 also with Greek and Latin.
Which level you go to determines the level of tertiary education. You need level 1 or 2 to get into university (medicine, theology and one or two other studies are only accessible with level 1), 1, 2 or 3 to get into college, etc.
So maybe uniforms would make existing differences more apparent and might lead to discrimination. (level 6 schools and their students had a real bad reputation a few years back and now still)

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Mari

Elementary and Secondary school is free here as well (books aren't), but yes, there are 6 levels going from vocational schools (?) where you learn practical things to academical schools with a lot of theory, preparation for university and in the case of level 1 also with Greek and Latin.
Which level you go to determines the level of tertiary education. You need level 1 or 2 to get into university (medicine, theology and one or two other studies are only accessible with level 1), 1, 2 or 3 to get into college, etc.
So maybe uniforms would make existing differences more apparent and might lead to discrimination. (level 6 schools and their students had a real bad reputation a few years back and now still)

So levels 1 to 6 are free then or? If so, how is it then determined who gets in to level 1, level 4, level 6?

[Coffeehouse]

I just want to add, since I'm suspecting the thought has entered your head, I did not go to a uniformed school in Norway. There is, to my knowledge, not a single school in Norway that has uniforms.

[Mari]

No no, the levels have to do with secondary school, not elementary. But yeah, all schools are free, though parents are expected to pay a 'voluntary contribution' per year.
Tertiary schooling you do have to pay yourself, but it is heavily subsidized. I only pay E1500,- per year.

The levels are determined in the final year of elementary school by a test. But also the teacher's opinion counts. Based on that, you get advised to go to a certain level. It is up to you if you follow that advice or not, though for some schools you need to have a certain score before you can enter. For example, for my school you needed to have a score of 250/255 to be allowed to enter.
However, if you start in level 6, theoretically it is possible to get to level 1. Or you can work your way up to university through college after secondary school. So it's not like you are stuck on one level for the rest of your life.

EDIT: then where did you go to school if you don't mind me asking?

[Coffeehouse]

I see. So going to a decent elementary school is pretty crucial then. I'm guessing the large immigrant groups in the Netherlands see the downside of this?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Hehe alright, there we have it. That kind of clothing isn't exactly dignifying is it. The clothes I wore was a suit, with a corresponding tie (only one tie. Lose that tie and big trouble), a posh grey sweater and black formal shoes. On top of that the words Bonitas, Disciplina and Scientia were written on the right-hand side of our suit and sweater. Grace (Or honour),Discipline and Knowledge. As always, it's not wearing any uniform, it's what the uniform represents.

Actually, "Bonitas" means "goodness".

[Coffeehouse]

Yes it does, but it can also be understood as gracefulness

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I only know of it meaning just general goodness or else a sort of kindness. People are often quite liberal with their use of Latin words in logos.