01-18-2005, 02:30 PM | #41 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-18-2005, 03:08 PM | #42 |
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Well... to turn the conversation in another direction, what about the men in the paths of the dead...
Wraiths.. or ghosts? Is there a significant difference?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-18-2005, 03:18 PM | #43 | |
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From The Last Debate:
Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-18-2005, 04:09 PM | #44 | |
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01-18-2005, 04:11 PM | #45 |
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Or perhaps they would become only visble in the wraith world and not in the living world.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-18-2005, 04:13 PM | #46 |
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possible...
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01-18-2005, 05:24 PM | #47 |
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So.. If the oath breakers are wraiths... then there are obviously other wraiths in the world...
The question is, how were they turned to wraiths? Obviously not by the same means the nazgul were... they were turned by their rings. And Frodo would have been turned into a wraith either by the power of the one ring, or the morgul spell, or a combination of both... not that it matters to the discussion, in either case there's a ring involved. The men of the paths of the dead were cursed by Isildur, if you remember... The question is, was it before or after Isildur aquired the one ring? If it was after then you needn't worry about another mechanism for becoming a wraith, wraithhood always involves a ring somewhere down the line... Unfortunately for that theory, I think that Isildur cursed the oathbreakers BEFORE he got the one ring... Which means that... the curse of the King of the Kings of Men (the Dúnedain) can also turn you into into a wraith! Which seems sort of unlikely... Perhaps (and I think most likely) becoming a wraith is mostly a variation of ghosthood, brought on by regret, self loathing, and hatred. If you notice, the ghosts of the oathbreakers couldn't actually physically harm anyone. Terror was their only weapon. Unlike the Nazgul, who's primary weapon was terror, but they could physically touch you. Perhaps the rings they wore provided them with a method of physically interacting with the material world, even though they were mostly on the "spirit plane". Which means that if Frodo had become a wraith, he would have lost the ability to interact with the material world once the one ring was wrested from him... leaving him just a formless tormented ghost...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-18-2005, 05:33 PM | #48 |
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wow, now thats food for thought, I think your right about the curse before he obtained the ring, for some reason it just sounds like it would make more sense
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01-18-2005, 05:55 PM | #49 |
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Well Isildur cursed them to have no peace until their oath was fulfilled. But one curse couldn't stop men from dying, for if it did then the Men of Numenor would have cused each other in the times of Ar-Pharason, so they could never die. And death was the gift of Eru to men, and immortal life was something even the Valar could not grant Men. So I think the curse gave them a half life. Not to die, but not to live either.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-18-2005, 10:00 PM | #50 | ||
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Ghost or wraith?
Quote:
Wraiths on the other hand are still alive but are invisable in this world.
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01-19-2005, 04:19 AM | #51 |
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The quote I posted above states them as wraiths.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
01-19-2005, 02:04 PM | #52 | |
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Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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01-19-2005, 03:44 PM | #53 |
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it sounds more like a state of insomnia referring to the world of undead
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01-23-2005, 12:04 PM | #54 | ||
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Wraiths
Quote:
Would a wizzard become an invisable wizzard? If he did I'd call him a wraith-wizzard.
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Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
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01-23-2005, 11:35 PM | #55 |
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Somehow I doubt it. It would take a spirit much stronger than even the witch king to subdue or subvert a maia...
But he certainly had enough "spiritual strength" to affect a human or a hobbit... maybe dwarves and even some elves. Pehaps if Sauron were the one using a Morgul blade... but you kind of get the sense that would be slumming for him.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-24-2005, 09:49 PM | #56 | ||
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About that...
Quote:
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Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
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01-24-2005, 09:51 PM | #57 | |
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The istari are an organization of Maiar. So yes, a wizzard is a Maia. |
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01-24-2005, 09:54 PM | #58 | ||
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01-25-2005, 03:49 PM | #59 | |
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Hey guys, you do know that wizard only has one Z, right?
Anyway, yes, me9996, the Istari are Maiar. I understand your confusion due to not having read the Silm. A quote from the Silm: Quote:
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Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 01-25-2005 at 03:52 PM. |
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01-25-2005, 03:56 PM | #60 |
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Weird, my post doesn't come up on "last post"...
Well, this should take care of that. Anyway, I wonder how Isildur himself had the power to curse someone in that fashion. It seems like the sort of thing like partly withholding (for a time at least) the Gift of Man should be beyond a mortal's power, even if he had Elvish and even Maiarin blood...
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