Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Mesada]

It is a regrettable event that happened over in Iraq. Regrettable and wrong. There is absolutely no doubt about that, but like many have pointed out, it is not a representation of the entirety of the armed forces over in Iraq.

These were 6 soldiers who thought they'd get a good laugh at the Iraqi's everyones been killed by, and to humiliate them for their own twisted reasons.

It is a wonderful redeeming fact that their own troopmates turned them in. Those soldiers who stood up to 6 others that they had lived and fought with is commendable and they should be praised and recognized.

The one soldier claimed he didn't have training, true, but this was a cop out and an excuse. Ridiculous on all accounts considering his job.

To the young lady who feels there is no need to have patriotism in ones country, or doesn't feel proud of where she lives, I think that's very sad that you can't count your blessings (so to speak) to be living in a country with Womens Rights and tons of other laws to 'level the playing field' for all kinds of people. With freedom of speech, to say that you don't love America although you are American.

Personally I think that being un-patriotic is a fad like wearing those gay hankercheifs on your head was a few years ago. It's cool now, but who knows what will be 'cool' tomorrow.

[Radagast]

I am somewhat disappointed to see the way this thread is going. My thread was, as I have stated, not to pin the blame on America or the American military but merely do discuss what an atrocity this was and how best to deal with it so can we not turn this into another debate on how maligned and ill-treated America is. Thanks.

[GrayMouser]

Obviously these people are a tiny fraction of the soldiers and Marines in Iraq, and don't represent the vast majority.

OTOH, I don't think that it's only these six rotten apples who just happened to be in the same barrel. If you look at the pictures, taken at different times and in different locations, these are not people who feel that they have anything to hide- no hoods, no averted faces- big happy smiles, posing for the cameras.

That's not the attitude of rogue elements who are worried about their superiors discovering their excesses.

When you add in that they were being supervised by private contractors, even more questions are raised

Lawyers for the soldiers argue they are being made scapegoats for a rogue military prison system in which mercenaries give orders without legal accountability.

A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.

One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.

............................

Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian: "One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him."

She did not specify the accusation facing the contractor, but according to several sources with detailed knowledge of the case, he raped an Iraqi inmate in his mid-teens.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...206725,00.html

The presence of almost 20,000 armed private contractors- basically mercenaries- who are not under military discipline is becoming a serious problem, but this case especially so.

What were these guys doing in a military-run prison? Is it precisely because they do not operate under the military code of conduct?

[GrayMouser]

These pictures are also going to have a huge negative effect in Iraq and the Moslem world in general .

(And, yes, acknowledged that it's extremely hypocritical, when most of their own governments are much worse)

Already according to the latest Gallup poll, most Iraqis want the Coalition troops out,

But while they acknowledge benefits from dumping Saddam a year ago, Iraqis no longer see the presence of the American-led military as a plus. Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers."

That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included. The negative characterization is just as high among the Shiite Muslims who were oppressed for decades by Saddam as it is among the Sunni Muslims who embraced him.

The growing negative attitude toward the Americans is also reflected in two related survey questions: 53% say they would feel less secure without the coalition in Iraq, but 57% say the foreign troops should leave anyway. Those answers were given before the current showdowns in Fallujah and Najaf between U.S. troops and guerrilla fighters.

(my emphasis added)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ll-cover_x.htm

and , of course, before these pictures.

Want to bet that those negatives have jumped another 10%?

Also, in the non-Kurdish areas, 50% of the population say it's okay to attack American troops- again, before Fallijah, Najaf, and the prison pictures.

Plus, now Fallujah is being turned over to a Republican Guard General who was an aide to 'Chemical Ali' in the 90s, who walked into the city in his old uniform to cheers, and raised the 'old' Iraqi flag.

The Shi'ites in Najaf who were attacking al-Sadr were so furious at this 're-Baathification' that they have now joined demonstrations alongside the Mahdi Army.

And let's not forget that the Brits have their own torture scandal going along , too.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's not ignorance - and it's equally ignorant to see only corruption and greed. It's the ones who think that America is all bad and only see the bad things who are the ones who generally take things for granted. Also - seeing greed and corruption isn't the truth - it's only a smll picture of the whole. It is the ones who see the many good things - as well as the bad things - who are patriotic. But just because there are bad things - doesn't mean that it outweighs the good. And I do believe the majority of things the USA has done - has been good and positive throughout it's history.

If you think I'm ignorant because I am proud of American and I'm patriotic- then you are wrong. I see the good and the bad - but that's not going to prevent me from celebrating the numerous good things or celebrating 4th of July or holding my head up high.

Whoa, calm down I didn't say you were ignorant and just because I said that people see corruption and greed that doesn't mean that is the only thing they see.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Whoa, calm down I didn't say you were ignorant and just because I said that people see corruption and greed that doesn't mean that is the only thing they see.

Well when you said this

I could take a guess why people don't like their own country they aren't ignorant (its rather sad how many American take things for granted and are so ignorant) , they see the corruption and greed, they see the truth.

It seemed as if you are saying the only non-ignorant people are ones who don't like their countries and the only truth in America is greed and corruption.

[Spock]

Examples of horrific and atrocious behavior:

Killing people, dragging their bodies through the street, setting them on fire and hanging the corpses on a bridge; then dancing around them and their vehicle.

Somehow this puts things into perspective for me.

[Insidious Rex]

my dear spock. language again. be careful not to confuse justification with perspective. wrong is wrong.

[Spock]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
my dear spock. language again. be careful not to confuse justification with perspective. wrong is wrong.

I am very precise in my use of language and verbage concerning this subject as seen from my viewpoint. That's what BB's are supposed to reflect, the members viewpoints. Understanding is not condoning nor is chivarous behavor and naivete the way to overcome evil.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So - you like threads that show the US as being a crappy countyr huh? Interesting. Tioo bad it was only 6 people that we know of - but it is being presented as the "whole army". It must really disturb you to hear about the MAJORITY of good things we do. These soldiers are NOT America - America did NOT do this - the soldiers did and are paying for it. You know what I hate - people who only want to view the US as this evil and manipulative place. But then again you seem blinded by your hatred. And I'm sure the elitist part was referring to me - but I never said the US was perfect - but I'm not going to condemn America for something that individual soldiers chose to do - and a situtation America is taking care of.

Hemel - as for the photos being published - they were sent up through the chain of command I believe. This is not an old story and the people had LONG been removed and have been under investigation for their cirmes. The quesion I have is why when things ARE being done - why were the pictures published. It wasn't like there was NO action from the US government and they were just ignoring it.

Absolutely agree.
And another thing-these peope, the soldiers, are IN THE MIDST OF CHAOS, alot of them are going to go nuts.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
my dear spock. language again. be careful not to confuse justification with perspective. wrong is wrong.

Yes, wrong is wrong. It just seems though in this instance that the world sees it more wrong for the Americans to do such horrific things, than for other countries to do horrific things, when the horror and disgust of it all should be equal. Seems like a double standard. (Hey, we're going to mutilate 4 of your people and it's okay because they are Americans whom we hate, but by god, if you Americans do the same thing to any of us, its wrong and you are barbarians.) And though it is wrong, it is wrong for both, not just the Americans. A little one sided of an attitude, I'd say.

[Insidious Rex]

well when we trumpet oursleves as the height of sophisticated highest order moraility we set ourselves up for a long fall when we occasionaly dont meet up to these standards which we of course expect other "lesser" countries to recognize us as having.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well when we trumpet oursleves as the height of sophisticated highest order moraility we set ourselves up for a long fall when we occasionaly dont meet up to these standards which we of course expect other "lesser" countries to recognize us as having.

Yes, but again, we are talking about a few select idiots, not the entire US, or it's military. There are always morons embedded among the most sophisticated and moral.

Are you saying that because the US prides itself on its sophistication and morallity, that it is automatically held to a higher standard and therefore when a few of its people act like idiots and do a horrific deed, then the American people deserve to be looked at as idiots and barbarians with them? But because the Iraqis are not as sophisticated and moral, then barbarism is acceptable in the worlds eyes?

[Elf Girl]

I've been thinking on where the blame lies for this... abomination. The criminals doing the torture are clearly more than one screw loose (Who takes PICTURES that are so incriminating?) and should be locked up. I would say the people who really deserve to be chastized are the superior officers one and two levels above them (I know nothing about the structure of the military) who probably had an idea of what was going on but didnt' make an effort to stop it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I've been thinking on where the blame lies for this... abomination. The criminals doing the torture are clearly more than one screw loose (Who takes PICTURES that are so incriminating?) and should be locked up. I would say the people who really deserve to be chastized are the superior officers one and two levels above them (I know nothing about the structure of the military) who probably had an idea of what was going on but didnt' make an effort to stop it.

IIRC, the prison was being ran by a female brigadier general, who was immediately replaced when command found out what was going on.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
IIRC, the prison was being ran by a female brigadier general, who was immediately replaced when command found out what was going on.

I didn't know you American-types had Brigadier-Generals, I thought they were an entirely British rank. Brits use:

Brigadier-General,
Major-General
Lieutenant-General
General
Her Majesty's Field Marshal

Whereas I thought you used the star system?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I would say the people who really deserve to be chastized are the superior officers one and two levels above them (I know nothing about the structure of the military) who probably had an idea of what was going on but didnt' make an effort to stop it.

Absolutely. I suspect that the six being detained are only the 'fall guys', or grunts. I'll bet they were told to do this stuff to 'break' the prisoners.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Radagast
I didn't know you American-types had Brigadier-Generals, I thought they were an entirely British rank. Brits use:

Brigadier-General,
Major-General
Lieutenant-General
General
Her Majesty's Field Marshal

Whereas I thought you used the star system?

Yes, we have Brigadier Generals and Generals, but I haven't heard of Major Generals, or Lieutenant Generals, but I'm not too learned on the names of military ranks either.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Absolutely. I suspect that the six being detained are only the 'fall guys', or grunts. I'll bet they were told to do this stuff to 'break' the prisoners.

Well, that may be true to the extent of the upper command of the prison itself, but not the command of the US military.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Are you saying that because the US prides itself on its sophistication and morallity, that it is automatically held to a higher standard and therefore when a few of its people act like idiots and do a horrific deed, then the American people deserve to be looked at as idiots and barbarians with them? But because the Iraqis are not as sophisticated and moral, then barbarism is acceptable in the worlds eyes?

what im saying is that the iraqis never trumpeted themselves as being the height of morality and fairness but we do and when this assumption falls through and we prove ourselves to be less then moral ( EVEN if its half a dozen singular unregulate american soldiers) and you have to admit that you cringed horribly when you heard about this. I know I sure did. Because I know we have a lot to live up to. its a little disngenuous to say hey well other countries do worse deal with it when things like this happens. we need to cringe and deal with the hypocripsy involved when something like this happens. and not make excuses.