Elven Kings

[Ñólendil]

I haven't had a chance yet to read everyone's posts.

I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest

Good stuff in him. He's not very personal to the reader before the quest, or at least not as much as he is in Of Beren and Lúthien, but if you don't see any 'good stuff' in him, you're saying he's evil. I know you don't think that, you've already said you don't, but if you don't acknowledge any good in him whatsoever you're looking at him as though he's an Orc, or a Demon or something. But even Orcs are redeemable, and Thingol's definitely not an Orc

Or do you mean good stuff he did? I meant good stuff in him. If you mean the good stuff he did, there is not much to say of a long peaceful reign as King.

It is not that I choose to pick the bad side of the coin, there is just more on that side.

I don't know. I think we may have heard more bad things about him. Or rather, more detail has been given to us in relation to his initial feelings about Beren and Men in general, or his pride, because considering the tale, in depth talks about his good character would be boring. Yet we know he was well liked among his people, he was a just leader, he revered the Valar and their land and wished to see it again. He had strong bonds with his best friend Finwë and was saddened for never meeting him again, welcomed his kin from Finwë. He loved and was loved by Melian the Maia, a wise, kindly, generous and mighty spirit.

He hated the Enemy and all allies of the Enemy. And he did love his kin. He did not foresee Finrod's death, to suppose that is just illogical. We haven't heard that Galadriel told Melian or Thingol of what her brother told her. Doubtless it would have been mentioned had Thingol knew he was sending his grand nephew off to his death as well.

After the Quest of Beren, much more good in him is seen, as you note in a sort of offhand sort of way. We know of his part played in the tragedy of Túrin's life. And in Húrin's (which we know virtually nothing about), that told of his death. We know of his dislike of the Sons of Fëanor because of the evil they did long ago in Eldamar, but also particularly to Curufin and Celegorm because of the evils they accomplished against Beren, Lúthien and Finrod (but nonetheless the evils would not have happened had he never sent Beren off to his death, of which he repented, and also he himself desired to keep the Silmaril, which was dangerous and had good and bad results). He became a much more kindly king, loving and open-minded, etc., etc., etc.. I think we've seen equally his bad side and good side.

I find a theory involving the final days of Beren and Lúthien as unhappy to be unwarranted and unlikely. Unwarranted because there is absolutely nothing that might suggest this (as you know, unless you think the w/o certitude tells us something) and their relationship alone suggests the contrary. Unlikely because we are here in a way talking about John Ronald Tolkien and his wife Edith. He wouldn't give their marriage a sad ending! I've already addressed the 'w/o certitude' quote. The passage was referring to the opposing choice of staying in Aman, which in theory was a promise to bliss and peace. Nothing can be certain in a life in Middle-earth, that I believe is the extent of the passage's meaning.

Easterlinge, I definitely agree with Sister in that Thingol was a racist. The Halethrim event happened before Beren was born. Thingol allowed them to stay there so long as they did not allow Orcs into the land! He knew what happened to Haleth's brother and father, so that tells you what he thought of them. Only after Beren returned did his views begin to change. He does seem to have had some friendship with the Dwarves of Ered Luin before the disaster of Doriath though. Unfortunately, we do not know exactly what happened. If you have War of the Jewels (Vol. XI of HoMe, which I received recently as an extremely early birthday present), you'll be able to read about what really happened in the Fall of Doriath. Or rather, you'll find out we don't know what really happened. Christopher altered and added a lot and he deeply regretted doing so.

[Ñólendil]

All right, I've read up a bit, but this is going to be slightly redundant, considering Golden Hair and I have some understanding with one another.

Why should the NauglamÃ*r have gone to Galadriel? As sister of Finrod, you mean? Finrod had a nephew too in his own home (that died), and a grand nephew and niece (Rodnor and Finduilas according to the latest take on the parentage of Gil-Galad). I guess Galadriel has the same degree of claim to it. I understand you. If you take apart the NauglamÃ*r after the Silmaril was set in it though, it comes down to this:

1. 1. Wrought by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains
   
   2. Gems uncounted from Valinor (brought by Finrod's people) set therein
   
   3. Silmaril wrought by Faenor, whos sons vowed to retrieve it from Morgoth, but Eönwë said that their right perished because of their many merciless deeds
   
   4. Light of the Silmarilli came from the unsullied Light of the Two Trees, which came to be by the power of Yavanna and Niënna
   
   5. Silmaril brought by Beren and Lúthien from Morgoths Crown and from the belly of the wolf to Thingol's hand.

So I ask you, who does the NauglamÃ*r really belong to? The Carcanet itself I think belongs to Finrod's nearest kin in Middle-earth (Galadriel or Rodnor, but perhaps more Rodnor {Gil-Galad} because he was of the people of Nargothrond, then again Galadriel endured the Grinding Ice and was of the people that brought the gems to Middle-earth -- before Rodnor was born). The Silmaril I think ultimately belonged to the Valar, but as Melian councilled it should have been given to the sons of Faenor. In this Thingol erred, for good and for bad reasons. The Dwarves gave up their right to it when they gave the carcanet to Finrod.

Actually Gil-Galad and Thingol were related to Finrod in the same degree. Thingol was his grand uncle and Gil-Galad was his grand nephew. But Thingol was not of Nargothrond. Galadriel or Gil-Galad.

Elvellon, it is definitely stated in that chapter that Thingol was hoping Beren would die in the attempt.

In response to the original point of this topic, I think the greatest Ñoldorin King was Gil-Galad. Here's a Noldo who began his Kingship as the last King of an oppressed and all but hopeless people, and ever after arose as the good hope of the Free Peoples, shunning the darkness and its lord. We see a lot of tragedy in the Ñoldorin Kings. Finwë and his love story with MÃ*riel are well known, and his death by the hand of Morgoth. Fëanáro of course was the cause (besides Melkor, ultimately the cause or origin of all evil) of the fall of the Noldor, slain by the Balrogs before Thangorodrim early in the Wars of Beleriand. Fingolfin seeing (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of Beleriand and all its realms challenged Morgoth himself and was physically broken, slain. Fingon in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, not a tragedy really (neither maybe was Fingolfin's), but his head was hewn off by Gothmog. That was a disastrous battle. Finrod died saving Beren's life, slaying a Werewolf with his bare hands and teeth. Tragedy. Turgon also, his entire realm coming to ruins because of the treachery of his sister-son. According to the old legend (the only one we can use) he died with the destruction of his tower. Maedros cast himself into a fiery chasm with the Silmaril that he had stolen by murder. But Gil-Galad marched to a victorious war with the greatest army that was ever mustered since the Great Battle and died on the slopes of Orodruin, perhaps killed by Sauron himself.

Although the full purpose of the Last Alliance was not achieved, the war I think was victorious. Gil-Galad was definitely an unfallen King, morally (not that there weren't others). I think he was definitely the greatest King of the Noldor. According to Tolkien's latest conception of him though, he was also a Sinda.

It is interesting that all the Kings were slain. My father remarked to me when he was reading The Silmarillion for the first time that if you check the Index (as he frequently did), seemingly most of the characters are slain or killed.

Oh ho! But I forget Finarfin. Wasn't slain. I think according to at least one note he was called a King. Finarfin or Gil-Galad, that's my pick.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
[COLOR=green] I haven't had a chance yet to read everyone's posts.

I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest

Good stuff in him. He's not very personal to the reader before the quest, or at least not as much as he is in Of Beren and Lúthien, but if you don't see any 'good stuff' in him, you're saying he's evil. I know you don't think that, you've already said you don't, but if you don't acknowledge any good in him whatsoever you're looking at him as though he's an Orc, or a Demon or something. But even Orcs are redeemable, and Thingol's definitely not an Orc

I don't see Thingol as a demon, Orc, or any other type of fell creature, I see him as an Elf that was power hungry in wanting to posess the entire country of Beleriand under his rule. I see him as an Elf that looked down his nose at the race of Men. He was prideful and arrogant, and these were the undesirable qualities before the quest of Beren. Tolkien did not elaborate much on Thingol's character as far as the good within him, or about him.

Or do you mean good stuff he did? I meant good stuff in him. If you mean the good stuff he did, there is not much to say of a long peaceful reign as King.[/B]

Thingol did have a long peaceful reign as king. And I think I would atribute that fact to his wife more then to him.

I don't know. I think we may have heard more bad things about him. Or rather, more detail has been given to us in relation to his initial feelings about Beren and Men in general, or his pride, because considering the tale, in depth talks about his good character would be boring. Yet we know he was well liked among his people, he was a just leader, he revered the Valar and their land and wished to see it again. He had strong bonds with his best friend Finwë and was saddened for never meeting him again, welcomed his kin from Finwë. He loved and was loved by Melian the Maia, a wise, kindly, generous and mighty spirit.[/B]

This I will agree with. However as for welcoming Finwe's kin, it was not with open arms. Here is a portion of his words to Angrod. " Beware therefore how you Princes of the West bear yourselves, for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all that seek to dwell there shall hear my word." Not very friendly I would say. Also, when he learned of the kinslaying, he was extreamly harsh to Finrod who was not involved.

He did not foresee Finrod's death, to suppose that is just illogical. We haven't heard that Galadriel told Melian or Thingol of what her brother told her. Doubtless it would have been mentioned had Thingol knew he was sending his grand nephew off to his death as well..[/B]

This I disagree with. When Beren showed him that ring he knew. He knew the purpose of why that ring was in the hands of the Edain and what it meant, meaning the oath that Finrod had sworn. After seeing Beren hold it up and hearing the proud words he spoke, unless Thingol was stupid, which I don't think he was, then he knew that Beren would take Finrod up on his offer, and if he did not know that, then he did know that it was at least a possibility.

After the Quest of Beren, much more good in him is seen, as you note in a sort of offhand sort of way. We know of his part played in the tragedy of Túrin's life. And in Húrin's (which we know virtually nothing about), that told of his death. We know of his dislike of the Sons of Fëanor because of the evil they did long ago in Eldamar, but also particularly to Curufin and Celegorm because of the evils they accomplished against Beren, Lúthien and Finrod (but nonetheless the evils would not have happened had he never sent Beren off to his death, of which he repented, and also he himself desired to keep the Silmaril, which was dangerous and had good and bad results). He became a much more kindly king, loving and open-minded, etc., etc., etc.. I think we've seen equally his bad side and good side.[/B]

Agreed

I find a theory involving the final days of Beren and Lúthien as unhappy to be unwarranted and unlikely. Unwarranted because there is absolutely nothing that might suggest this (as you know, unless you think the w/o certitude tells us something) and their relationship alone suggests the contrary. Unlikely because we are here in a way talking about John Ronald Tolkien and his wife Edith. He wouldn't give their marriage a sad ending! I've already addressed the 'w/o certitude' quote. The passage was referring to the opposing choice of staying in Aman, which in theory was a promise to bliss and peace. Nothing can be certain in a life in Middle-earth, that I believe is the extent of the passage's meaning..[/B]

As I said before, there is know way to know the extent of their happiness. If you are saying they were happy just because they were together, that is probably true. I am just saying that the w/o certitude of life and joy was a condition placed on them in making the choice to return to ME. Again, the text does not give this information on their happiness or sorrows after their return. If Tolkien says that they were to dwell without certitude of life or joy for this choice, then that is what happened.

[Ñólendil]

Also in response to Tar-Elenion:

"after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their [Elrond and Elros] descendants"; ... the LotR statement does not take into account Galadriel (or is refering only to those who were Kings of the Noldor in Middle-earth (after the rebellion), in which case it does not need to include Maglor either since Feanor was (arguably) not a King.

I don't think it can be referring only to descendants of those who were High-elven Kings, for it must include Galadriel and Maglor if he was still to be found in Middle-earth. Both are descended from Finwë, whether Faenor or Finarfin were Kings or not. Or have I misunderstood you?

Anyway I think you're right, it certainly doesn't take Galadriel into account, being the granddaughter of Finwë and Olwë.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
[COLOR=blue]All right, I've read up a bit, but this is going to be slightly redundant, considering Golden Hair and I have some understanding with one another.

Why should the NauglamÃ*r have gone to Galadriel? As sister of Finrod, you mean? Finrod had a nephew too in his own home (that died), and a grand nephew and niece (Rodnor and Finduilas according to the latest take on the parentage of Gil-Galad). I guess Galadriel has the same degree of claim to it. I understand you. If you take apart the NauglamÃ*r after the Silmaril was set in it though, it comes down to this:

1. 1. Wrought by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains
   
   2. Gems uncounted from Valinor (brought by Finrod's people) set therein
   
   3. Silmaril wrought by Faenor, whos sons vowed to retrieve it from Morgoth, but Eönwë said that their right perished because of their many merciless deeds
   
   4. Light of the Silmarilli came from the unsullied Light of the Two Trees, which came to be by the power of Yavanna and Niënna
   
   5. Silmaril brought by Beren and Lúthien from Morgoths Crown and from the belly of the wolf to Thingol's hand.

So I ask you, who does the NauglamÃ*r really belong to? The Carcanet itself I think belongs to Finrod's nearest kin in Middle-earth (Galadriel or Rodnor, but perhaps more Rodnor {Gil-Galad} because he was of the people of Nargothrond, then again Galadriel endured the Grinding Ice and was of the people that brought the gems to Middle-earth -- before Rodnor was born). The Silmaril I think ultimately belonged to the Valar, but as Melian councilled it should have been given to the sons of Faenor. In this Thingol erred, for good and for bad reasons. The Dwarves gave up their right to it when they gave the carcanet to Finrod.

Actually Gil-Galad and Thingol were related to Finrod in the same degree. Thingol was his grand uncle and Gil-Galad was his grand nephew. But Thingol was not of Nargothrond. Galadriel or Gil-Galad..

Well, I think it all depends on which account you want to except. I am refering to the account before the parentage of Gil-galad is changed from being the son of Fingon. In other words the published Silmarillion. I think that the Nauglamir should have gone to Orodreth actually as Finrod's only surviving brother at the time, and then after his death to Galadriel. If it had come to her, it might have even made its way to Arwen. My guess would be that it was passed on to Orodreth, and after his death and the sack of Nargothrond it layed there until Hurin came along. I wonder though, even if Galadriel had received it would it still have ended up with Thingol and the Silmaril? It would have been in Doriath.

[Ñólendil]

My memory perhaps is hazy. Did not Orodreth die in the sack of Nargothrond, long before the Silmaril was put into the NauglamÃ*r? I haven't read the published Ruin of Doriath in a while. I'm sort of turned off towards it now that I know it is basically a bucket o' hogwash. I suppose I should read the Ruin of Doriath and JRR Tolkien's actual writings in War of the Jewels once more, then get into the conversation. But I thought you meant after the Silmaril was set in it.

[Tar-Elenion]

Inoldonil:
Yes you may have slightly misunderstood me.
First my commentary is an attempt to justify or reconcile an apparent flaw or contradiction.

The quote is:
"after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their [Elrond and Elros] descendants".
(I hope we can agree to define lineage as 'a line of descent').
In context of the LotR High-elves refers to the Noldor (see the Index of LotR for quick reference).
After the fall of Gil-galad there are, in Middle-earth (excluding the Numenoreans) three known descendants of the Royal House of the Noldor. These are Elrond, Galadriel and Celebrian (later also Elrond's children). So there must be a reason why Galadriel and Celebrian are not counted.
The simplest might be to say it is just wrong.
Or we could suppose the Professor simply forgot or did not really consider its implications.
But lets actually accept the statement as accurate and try to justify it.
Something that Elrond (and Gil-galad) are that neither Galadriel nor Celebrian are is actual direct lineal descendants High-elven (sic. Noldorin) Kings _in Middle-earth_. Elrond is descended from Fingolfin and Turgon, both of whom were High-elven kings in Middle-earth. Gil-galad was descended from, variously Finrod, Fingon (and thus Fingolfin) or Orodreth. All of these were High-elven Kings in Middle-earth Galadriel and Celebrian are both descended from Finwe who was certainly King of the Noldor, but he was not King of the Noldor in Middle-earth (per se, i.e. he became King of the Noldor likely while on the Great March, but they were leaving Middle-earth not staying, if you get my drift). This could also justify other possible descendents of the Royal House (such as Maglor and others unnamed) surviving.
Does that make sence?

[Elvellon]

…. it seems I can’t trust my memory (it just have been too long since I read The Silmarillion, “sigh�). Thanks, Sister Golden Hair, for reminding me that Thingol saw the ring of Barahir on Beren’s hand.

I read that part of the Sil again, and have clearer ideas about it now (I just wish I had the time to read it all again…). It is clear to me that Thingol’s anger, at the time, was barely under control. Certainly it is possible that he was not thinking very clearly at the time, and the full meaning of the ring might have escaped him. It is true that Beren told how his father received the ring from Finrod “on the battlefield of the North�, clearly implying that it was a gift for his father valour, but I doubt that Thingol, in his anger, saw behind the obvious, and understood that it meant a life debt. What I’m saying is, that if Thingol had realized Beren would ask Finrod’s aid, he could have devised a way to avoid it, For example, Thingol could have demanded of Beren that he would do his quest alone, without anybody’s aid.


Inoldonil said,

“Elvellon, it is definitely stated in that chapter that Thingol was hoping Beren would die in the attempt.�

I still think that Thingol didn’t believe Beren had the courage to attempt to take a silmaril from Morgoth. I believe Thingol felt contempt for the “lowly mortal�, and didn’t gave much credit for Beren´s courage or for the love he felt for Luthien (he hoped for Beren's death, but was not expecting it to became reality).

Now, about Thingol’s prejudice against the Noldor. I have not written about it before, but it is an interesting subject. It doesn’t look to me that he had any prejudice against them early on. In his words to Angrod, during the noldo prince first visit to Doriath, we see him giving many lands of his kingdom to the Noldor (those lands were few Sindar lived), and the reason he gives to not allow the Noldor to create kingdoms elsewhere in Beleriand is a sensible one (he didn’t want to see his people restrained of their freedom). He did not forbade (at that time) the Noldor of visit Doirath neither. Despite that, I believe Thingol must have heard of the quarrels among the Noldor princes early on (some of Thingol’s folk lived in the north, in the lands first settled by the Noldor), and Melian warned him that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them. His anger against them was thus justified, who among us would open the doors of our house for the slayers of our family, or their kin?

I don’t think Thingol hated mankind (besides Beren, for a time), he just didn’t trusted them (because of the betrayal of the Avari, I suppose), and didn’t saw them as a people capable of being a real aid in his war against Morgoth (agross mistake)

Just another subject, I’m glad that most people at this thread appreciate Finrod as much as I do, after all, he is my favourite character.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
My memory perhaps is hazy. Did not Orodreth die in the sack of Nargothrond, long before the Silmaril was put into the NauglamÃ*r? I haven't read the published Ruin of Doriath in a while. I'm sort of turned off towards it now that I know it is basically a bucket o' hogwash. I suppose I should read the Ruin of Doriath and JRR Tolkien's actual writings in War of the Jewels once more, then get into the conversation. But I thought you meant after the Silmaril was set in it.

Yes, Orodreth died in the forfront of the battle, and yes, it was long beore the silmaril was placed in the Nauglamir. As far as it being a bucket od hogwash, that depends on if you have read the HoMe, which I have only had a slight exposure to. I still love the published Silmarillion, since at the time I read it, it was the way it was. There were no Histories of Middle-earth. And no, I meant before the Silmaril was placed in it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvellon
: What I’m saying is, that if Thingol had realized Beren would ask Finrod’s aid, he could have devised a way to avoid it, For example, Thingol could have demanded of Beren that he would do his quest alone, without anybody’s aid.

True, he could have also sent Beren on a lesser quest and assured his death, but probably not without doubt. He had to be sure that it was something that he would fail at. As for him not wishing to involve Finrod by not thinking clearly, I don't find that acceptable. He just did not care even after he knew that it was a possibility. IMHO.

[i]I still think that Thingol didn’t believe Beren had the courage to attempt to take a silmaril from Morgoth. I believe Thingol felt contempt for the “lowly mortal�, and didn’t gave much credit for Beren´s courage or for the love he felt for Luthien (he hoped for Beren's death, but was not expecting it to became reality).[/B]

I think that this was otherwise. He hoped for Beren's death. He knew Beren loved Luthien and he was going to do everything to prevent that relationship. He wanted Beren's death to be reality. The trouble is that when Beren acomplished it, Thingol wasn't expecting that, and then he felt foolish and realized that maybe he had underestimated him, and the race of men.

[i] In his words to Angrod, during the noldo prince first visit to Doriath, we see him giving many lands of his kingdom to the Noldor).[/B]

But this was not his land to give or deny, he just claimed it, and as is seen later very little of his land came to be outside of the Girdle of Melian or Doriath.

[i] He did not forbade (at that time) the Noldor of visit Doirath neither.).[/B]

The text states that the Sons of Finarfin were the only ones admitted into Doriath because they could claim close kinship with Thingol since there mother was Earwen, the daughter of Olwe.)..

[i] Despite that, I believe Thingol must have heard of the quarrels among the Noldor princes early on (some of Thingol’s folk lived in the north, in the lands first settled by the Noldor), and Melian warned him that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them.).).[/B]

First of all, Melian did not know anything until Galadriel told her, and then Galadriel did not tell her of the Curse of Mandos, The Oath of Feanor, or the Kinslaying. All of this was brought to Thingol's attention by Cirdan. It was only after he heard of the Kinslaying, he forbade the use of Quenya throughout Beleriand. He never had dealings with the Noldor exceptfor Finrod and Fingolfin ever.

[i] Just another subject, I’m glad that most people at this thread appreciate Finrod as much as I do, after all, he is my favourite character. [/B]

Something we have in comman. He is my hero.

[Ñólendil]

Thanks for the explanation Elenion, that does indeed make a great deal more sense. I get your drift.

Elvellon, certainly Thingol was not prejudiced against all the Noldor. He was ill-pleased how little they consulted him in matters, particularly with the Coming of Men into Beleriand (but Finrod did). He certainly greatly disliked the Sons of Faenor (he was somewhat suspicious, after he heard of the Kinslaying he hated them), but he was friends with his own kin. He seems to have got on well enough with Galadriel, and Finrod also was his friend. There's no hostility recorded against Angrod, Aegnor or Arothir (Orodreth if you prefer) either. Nor did he withdraw his friendship from Fingolfin's House, even though they shared no blood with him. It is important to remember, I think, that Finwë and Elwë had an ancient friendship.

Thingol did forbid the passage of all Noldor into his realm, save those that had some kinship with him. That would be (at the time) Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor, Galadriel and Arothir/Orodreth. Five of the Noldor were allowed in.

There were some of his kind he and many others grew to distrust. Some of the Northern Sindar, the Mithrim are actually known to have entered into the service of Morgoth and to have served him as spies. Apparently they had been enslaved and under the fear of torment, or the pain of it, had served him. Not unknown among the Eldar, look at Maeglin. Beren spoke the Northern dialect of Sindarin, it offended the ears of Thingol.

What do you mean by 'betrayel of the Avari'?

Sister Golden Hair, I really should read everyone's posts before I type, but I don't feel like deleting all this. Frequently I find myself repeating you

P.S., Do you know I think the Quenya form of your user name would be Osellë Laureafindë, which may be contracted to Laurefindë, Laurë for short (or Osellë I guess).

[Finmandos12]

But this was not his land to give or deny, he just claimed it, and as is seen later very little of his land came to be outside of the Girdle of Melian or Doriath.

That's true. What he "gave" them was what he had no control over. He wanted protection without surrendering his territory, which was a shrewd move. He was smart here, not good or evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Sister Golden Hair, I really should read everyone's posts before I type, but I don't feel like deleting all this. Frequently I find myself repeating you

P.S., Do you know I think the Quenya form of your user name would be Osellë Laureafindë, which may be contracted to Laurefindë, Laurë for short (or Osellë I guess).

No problem Inoldonil. I find I repeat myself alot Also, I am not learned in the languages of Tolkien, but if you say that is my name, then I will take your word for it. You probably know where I picked the name from I am sure, but in case you don't I will tell you. It is from a song by America called(Sister Golden Hair Surprise) I couldn't think of a good name, and I did not want to choose one from the books, so I picked this out of thin air.

[adanedhel]

I don't think Thingol hated men because they were mortal...perhaps because he felt they were inferior, but he was definately angry that none of the Noldor (save Finrod) consulted with him before allowing Men into Beleriand.

Also, he had dreams about the coming of Men long before anyone had heard of them...I imagine (though it is not documented) that these dreams had to do with a Man having some negative (as he saw it) effect on his kingdom.

[Ñólendil]

he saw rather in some fashion the shadow of Húrin.


Sister, I'm a Classic Rock fan, but having a terrible memory and being born in '86 I have trouble remembering band names and applying them to songs. So no, didn't know that

[Elvellon]

Oh Boy!… I just can´t stop myself from typing about this issue. I just hope you do enjoy this debate as much as I do, Sister Golden Hair and Inoldonil.

-The Personality Problem of Thingol
Hm, as I see it, there is one problem in accepting the theory that Thingol knew Beren would ask Finrod ‘s aid. It implies that Thingol wasn’t a jerk, but a sociopath (“sending� his nephew to a certain death, just to kill someone he hated… by the Valar!). I don’t think Tolkien meant that, for we see Thingol married with Melien, for a very long time, and I doubt such a monster could fool her for long. He was also one of the 3 messengers chosen by Orome to go to Aman, and that implies he had the trust of the Valar).

Of course he might have changed during time, but then, he still had to be a power mad, cold, tyrant by the time Beren came into Doriath. But there is nothing to imply that Doriath, at that time, was a place of fear and injustice. If Thingol were such an uncaring monster to his family then how he would be as a ruler to his people? And if Doriath had become such a morgothian pit, would Melian just sit by the tyrant’s side doing nothing? And would the other elven lords of the land do nothing neither?

But then, if Thingol wasn’t such a monster, why did he done what he did?
As far as I can see the only possible answer is that he did it while blinded by anger. But it is one thing to send the stranger he hated to a certain death and another to sacrifice his nephew to accomplish it. I don’t think any normal, sane person would do it, not even under the greatest of angers. But a great rage could blind him to what Barahir ring really meant, and so he did nothing to avoid Finrod’s death. (And yes, he didn’t have to send Beren in another, lesser quest; he only needed to send him in the same quest, denying him the right of any aid. That would make Beren’s death more certain, not less).


Sister Golden Hair said:
“He [Thingol] hoped for Beren's death. He knew Beren loved Luthien and he was going to do everything to prevent that relationship. He wanted Beren's death to be reality. The trouble is that when Beren acomplished it, Thingol wasn't expecting that, and then he felt foolish and realized that maybe he had underestimated him, and the race of men.�

Well, we partially agree in this. As I see it, Thingol’s mood was softened� when Beren returned empty handed because, as you said it,� he realized that he had underestimated him�. I believe that only then he realized how much that man was courageous and how much he loved his daughter. That is what makes me believe that, in his previous contempt for Beren, he might have not believed him capable of attempting the quest.
But you said that:
a) Thingol had no doubts about Beren attempting the quest. Therefore he hadn’t underestimated Beren’s courage.
b)Thingol hadn´t underestimated Beren’s love for Luthien.
So what is that you believe Thingol underestimated in Beren? What was so important to make he change is mind?


I wrote:
“In his words to Angrod, during the noldo prince first visit to Doriath, we see him giving many lands of his kingdom to the Noldor).�

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
“But this was not his land to give or deny, he just claimed it, and as is seen later very little of his land came to be outside of the Girdle of Melian or Doriath.�

True, if you accept Maedhros view, but what I think is relevant is that Thingol gave something that he considered his to the Noldor.

I wrote:
“He did not forbade (at that time) the Noldor of visit Doirath neither.�

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
The text states that the Sons of Finarfin were the only ones admitted into Doriath because they could claim close kinship with Thingol since there mother was Earwen, the daughter of Olwe�

But I was quoting Thingol when he said to Angrod “ Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you [the princes of the Noldor]…Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests…�, at this time there wasn’t any restriction to those that clamed a close kinship with Thingol, so it must have been at a later time he decided that.


I wrote:
“…and Melian warned Thingol that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them.

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
“First of all, Melian did not know anything until Galadriel told her, and then Galadriel did not tell her of the Curse of Mandos, The Oath of Feanor, or the Kinslaying. Cirdan brought all of this to Thingol’s attention. It was only after he heard of the Kinslaying, he forbade the use of Quenya throughout Beleriand. He never had dealings with the Noldor except for Finrod and Fingolfin ever.�

I wasn’t quite clear here. I meant Melian had perceive a veiled distrust and an unsolved and unspoken conflict between the Noldor princes, as she said to Galadriel “There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin…�.

Glad to hear your liking of Felagund, Sister Golden Hair.

Inoldonil,
I meant the betrayal of the Avari by the Fathers of Men. If my memory doesn’t fail me, Tolkien wrote
that when men first awoke in the far East they had as teachers Avari elves. He also wrote that Morgoth went among them and seduced men towards evil. Ann there is the recurring talk about the Edain fleeing a shadow from their past. And I’m certain you recall the conversation between Finrod and Andreth ( I advice it to B]Sister Golden Hair[/B] and all other who specially like Felagund. Is in Morgot’s Ring) but there is also an older tradition that, I believe, was never discarded by Tolkien, and is compatible with this one and were it is said that, at some point in the beginning, men were seduced by evil and turned against their elven teachers. If I’m not mistaken, you can find an early account of it in the Book of Lost Tales. Anyway, I think this would be a good explanation for Thingol’s distrust for men, since if this is true it could also be possible that Thingol could have known of this, as some of his people were, in origin, Nandor from Eriador were some Avari may have spoke with them of this.

[adanedhel]

From "The Coming of Men Into the West":

"But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew."

That may be what Thingol feared, but I doubt that he would have given his consent for Men to live anywhere in Beleriand if he had heard that they had "betrayed" the Avari in any way. Furthermore, the Nandor in Thingol's service arrived with Denethor long before the rising of the Sun and the awakening of Men (before the slaying of the Trees in fact) and therefore could have heard nothing from the Avari regarding Men.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvellon
-The Personality Problem of Thingol
Hm, as I see it, there is one problem in accepting the theory that Thingol knew Beren would ask Finrod ‘s aid. It implies that Thingol wasn’t a jerk, but a sociopath (“sending� his nephew to a certain death, just to kill someone he hated… by the Valar!). I don’t think Tolkien meant that, for we see Thingol married with Melien, for a very long time, and I doubt such a monster could fool her for long. He was also one of the 3 messengers chosen by Orome to go to Aman, and that implies he had the trust of the Valar).

You may be right that Tolkien did not mean that, but I think as readers we all perceive things in the story differently. If we didn't then we wouldn't have these fun debates. Right? And yes, Thingol may have been blinded by anger and not really have thought clearly, realizing that he may be drawing Finrod into a fatal scheme. I will give thingol the benefit of the doubt here for how it happened, but he is still the blame. There is even a character in the story that blames him in so many words. This may not be an exact quote. I don't have the book handy. But Hurin took the Nauglamir and cast it at Thingol's feet saying: "Receive thee thy fee for the safe keeping of my wife and my children. For this is the Nauglamir which is known to many among Elves and Men and I bring it to you out of the darkness of Nargothrond where Finrod thy kinsmen left it behind him when he set out to do the will of Thingol of Doriath."

[i]Of course he might have changed during time, but then, he still had to be a power mad, cold, tyrant by the time Beren came into Doriath. But there is nothing to imply that Doriath, at that time, was a place of fear and injustice. If Thingol were such an uncaring monster to his family then how he would be as a ruler to his people? And if Doriath had become such a morgothian pit, would Melian just sit by the tyrant’s side doing nothing? And would the other elven lords of the land do nothing neither? [/B]

I don't find Thingol to be a tyrant or a monster. I think he is egotistical and power happy.

[i]But you said that:
a) Thingol had no doubts about Beren attempting the quest. Therefore he hadn’t underestimated Beren’s courage.
b)Thingol hadn´t underestimated Beren’s love for Luthien.
So what is that you believe Thingol underestimated in Beren? What was so important to make he change is mind?[/B]

Thingol underestimated Beren's ability to succeed, and return alive. He changed when Beren came back and saw and heard all that happened. He then realized that Beren was quite a Man. Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?

[i]But I was quoting Thingol when he said to Angrod “ Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you [the princes of the Noldor]…Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests…�, at this time there wasn’t any restriction to those that clamed a close kinship with Thingol, so it must have been at a later time he decided that.[/B]

I will do some further checking on this, but as far as I know the only Noldor to have dealings with Thingol was the people of Finrod and Fingolfin.



I wrote:
“…and Melian warned Thingol that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them.

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
“First of all, Melian did not know anything until Galadriel told her, and then Galadriel did not tell her of the Curse of Mandos, The Oath of Feanor, or the Kinslaying. Cirdan brought all of this to Thingol’s attention. It was only after he heard of the Kinslaying, he forbade the use of Quenya throughout Beleriand. He never had dealings with the Noldor except for Finrod and Fingolfin ever.�

Btw, I have read the Athrabeth. It was beautiful.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by adanedhel
From "The Coming of Men Into the West":

That may be what Thingol feared, but I doubt that he would have given his consent for Men to live anywhere in Beleriand if he had heard that they had "betrayed" the Avari in any way.

Good point. I agree. Anyway you and Inoldonil already have solved the problem of the origin of Thingol's distrust for Men.

quote:
"Furthermore, the Nandor in Thingol's service arrived with Denethor long before the rising of the Sun and the awakening of Men (before the slaying of the Trees in fact"

Here I disagree. It is said elsewhere that small groups oh dark elves entered Beleriand secretly (HOME),I think there is no time restriction about it (But perhaps they were Avari, I don´t recall).

[Elvellon]

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
Quote:
"Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him? "

Never!, I always thought she was the real hero of the quest.

[i]
Btw, I have read the Athrabeth. It was beautiful. [/B]

I couldn’t agree more