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05-02-2005, 03:13 AM | #41 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-02-2005, 04:12 PM | #42 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think it is a very good idea you've had to move this question in the appropriate thread. Somehow the discussion always turns aside from the original subject…
Now, about Barad Dur. It is true that the foundations were made with the One ring, but, as for the rest, I think not. Practically, I believe, that were the nazgul in Sauron's service before his return to Mordor, they could have rebuilt Barad Dur. Especially if the nazgul still had their rings. As it is, Sauron had to rebuild Barad-Dur himself. Interestingly, the rebuilding of Barad-Dur began not in 2942, when Sauron returned to Mordor in secret, but only in 2951 when he has "declared himself openly" (Tale of Years) and have overcome the nazgul and taken their 9 rings. So, probably he used the 9 rings for the re-building. Quote:
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It is interesting to note that in the cases of major assaults on Gondor inspired by Sauron, the nazgul stayed perfectly neutral and out of the way (See Tale of Years): In 1851-1899 Gondor is assaulted by the Wainriders, in 1856 Gondor loses its eastern territories, and Narmacil II falls in battle. In 1899 king Calimehtar defeats the Wainriders on Dagorlad. In 1944 Ondoher falls in battle. Eärnil defeats the enemy in South Ithilien. He then wins the Battle of the Camp, and drives Wainriders into the Dead Marshes. At this time there were already several nazgul in Gorgoroth, but none came to Dagorlad or to Ithilien to help Sauron's allies. Since 2002 all the Nine dwell in Minas Morgul. Nothing has changed. In 2758 Gondor is attacked by fleets of the Corsairs, the nazgul remain quiet. In 2758 "stirred up by emissaries of Sauron the Haradrim cross the Poros and attack Gondor. When Ithilien was invaded in great strength. King Folcwine of Rohan fulfilled the Oath of Eorl and repaid his debt for the aid brought by Beregond, sending many men to Gondor. The sons of Folcwine of Rohan are slain in the service of Gondor." So there was fighting in Ithilien, at the doorstep of Minas Morgul! The appearance of Morgul orcs or even of a single nazgul might have changed the outcome. ( And there were troops in Morgul, as 15 years later " most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor.") But, no, the nazgul remained in their fortress. IMO, if the Haradrim were winning the war, the nazgul would even have intervened to help Gondor ! Because, after having defeated Gondor, Sauron would have attacked Minas Morgul by way of Ithilien. Last edited by Gordis : 08-18-2006 at 04:33 PM. |
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05-02-2005, 04:25 PM | #43 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I'm not sure wether it was in this thread, but you and Olmer have said that the actions of the Nazgûl during the Hunt of the Ring, pointed to the fact that they were free from Sauron. Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-02-2005, 04:49 PM | #44 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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IMO, Sauron believed that having the Nine rings and equipped with the Eye, he could read ALL of the nazgul minds, and he was right to an extent, but it looks like there still remained a possibility for them to shield some thoughts from him. My take on the matter is this: If Sauron after Gollum's revelations had put the Witch-King's ring on and fixed him with the Eye and asked him directly: "And now, Witchy, my darling, tell me where IS the Shire?" the Witch-King would have been compelled to tell him. But as Sauron hadn't suspected that the WK knew about the Shire's location from his time in Angmar, he didn't ask directly. And that was a BIG mistake. Because after having lied (by omission to venture the info), the WK and the other 8 became most interested NOT to let Sauron have the Ring, because otherwise they would have to answer for all the lies and omissions as well. |
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05-20-2005, 09:40 AM | #45 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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And really can one bump into an invisible and unclad nazgul? Another question, if half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942? why sauron has not used them? |
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05-21-2005, 06:42 PM | #46 | |
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What do the others think? |
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05-22-2005, 04:52 AM | #47 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I would say yes, purely because there was enough of them to wear cloaks.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-22-2005, 03:56 PM | #48 |
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I have not had time to check the books (HOME), but it seems to me that Tolkien first conceived the nazgul to be shape-shifters. I think in the first drafts of the Gaffer's encounter with a nazgul the latter looked like a hobbit!. Then Tolkien has written several versions of the Counsil of Erlond where all these observations about "loosing shape" belong, and then proceeded further. And what I remember for sure: in the first draft of Eowyn-WK fight she cut off the Fell-Beast head and that alone has caused the disappearance of the WK!! In the next draft, the WK remained very much alive after the death of his birdie, so Tolkien must have changed his conception of nazgul's matherial body at this point. I believe Tolkien simply failed to correct the previous chapters.
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05-26-2005, 10:51 AM | #49 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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A very interesting idea, Gordis!
And sorry what do you think about: If half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942, why Sauron has not used these nazgul (because now he COULD USE THEM), but let them go to Minas Morgul and stay away and do nothing? |
05-27-2005, 02:41 PM | #50 | |
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Since Sauron had taken their Rings, they were technically always under his orders. He may have used them as messengers, to supervise castle renovations etc. But I believe that after Angmar was defeated Sauron has devised a cunning plan: He set the nazgul "free" to act as the fifth column of Sauron in Minas Morgul. A nazgul without a ring is a rather pathetic creature. Lots of phobias, blindness in daylight and so on. They were afraid to enter an inn where there were lights and people. They even ran away from a shouting hobbit (the incident with Merry in Bree). So, after being robbed of their Rings and freed from Dol Guldur, the poor ringless nazgul quite naturally adhered to their Captain. The company in Minas Morgul must have been mixed (some were with their Rings and some without). Thousand years have passed. Sauron seemed to have forgotten about "his" nazgul. And the nazgul must have forgotten that their ringless comrades were a potential threat to the others. These ringless nazgul must have been crucial for Sauron when he returned to Mordor. The Witch King certainly had the Morannon and Cirith Ungol guarded. The ringless nazgul must have let Sauron through the Morannon and through the Cirith Ungol Pass and gave him the possibility to approach the unsuspecting Witch-King via Mordor. The Witch King and the other nazgul had no time to flee via Ithilien and lost their rings. Last edited by Gordis : 08-25-2008 at 10:55 AM. |
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05-28-2005, 02:36 PM | #51 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I don't think tthey fled from Merry out of fear. I think they fled because they wanted to be kept secret, and have their presence unknown.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-28-2005, 03:21 PM | #52 | |
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Yes I believe they could have fought a hobbit with a torch if it were necessary But still, without the WK leading them they were weak. |
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05-29-2005, 02:01 AM | #53 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I diagree again. If, as you claim, Khamul went back to Dol Guldur, to attack Lorien and Thranduil's Realm, then he surely was not weak without the WK.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-29-2005, 04:19 AM | #54 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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It looks like Khamul is your favorite nazgul, TD!
But it is stated in UT that he was the one most afflicted by water phobia, and daylight. On the other hand, he was second to the Chief, it certainly means he had some strong points other than sensing the Ring keenly. Perhaps he was a good sorceror? Or a good war leader? Actually it is quite strange, isn't it, that in the Tale of Years there is no mention of nazgul leading attacks on Lorien or Mirkwood. One can think there were just orcs. And from reading the description of the Ring's destruction I got an impression that all the remaining 8 nazgul were present at Morannon and perished in flames. What is your opinion? |
05-29-2005, 06:09 AM | #55 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I do not think that Sauron would trust any Orc to command the attack on such a critical place in ME. However I think it is likely that after their defeat, Khamul returned to Mordor, and was destroyed.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-29-2005, 06:15 AM | #56 | |
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How do you think, TD, was Khamul called "The Shadow of the East" only because he was originally an Easterling or because sometime in the first part of the THIRD age he was known for his activities in the East already as a Shadow? (Like the Morgul Lord was called "the Witch-King of Angmar" ever since just for his activities in the THIRD age)? |
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05-29-2005, 06:29 AM | #57 |
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I agree gordis. Do you know whether there is anywhere were it states that all the Nazgûl were present at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-29-2005, 04:56 PM | #58 | |
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Actually it is quite logical to assume Khamul was away at Dol Guldur as on March 11 there was the first assault on Lorien from DG and on the 15 (the day of the Pelennor battle) there were both the second assault on Lorien and the "battle under the trees in Mirkwood" where Thranduil repelled DG forces (Tale of Years). Another proof : when the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn, the logical replacement for him would have been his second-in command, Khamul. But it was Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, who replaced Witchy. So Khamul very likely was absent. What do you think about Khamul's title (see my previous post)? |
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05-29-2005, 05:05 PM | #59 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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But why didn't aany of the other Nazgûl take control?
As for the name I agree. Especially since Haldir said in FotR "Oft the shadow now lies over it" or something similar.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 05-29-2005 at 05:07 PM. |
05-29-2005, 05:11 PM | #60 | |
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