The Ring Revealed at Osgiliath!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Hey, Insidious Rex, of course I'd give you an A...for effort.

Good cause I need something to balance out my C+ on my Tom Bombadil paper.

In response to your points:

[QUOTE][B]Frodo DID NOT offer the ring to the Nazgul. At first glance, it looked that way. But if you watch that scene closely, you'll see that he was struggling with himself about whether to put on the ring and had the ring in front of him because it was still around his neck on the chain.[B]

Hmm ok Ill take your word for it but Ill have to pay close attention to this part the third time I watch the movie.

But I would agree with you that the Nazgul have a general sense of where the ring is and I would also agree that much of eastern Gondor has been overrun, including Osgiliath. But I stand by my statement.

In Sauron's mind, he would not view the knowledge that the ring had been "felt" in Osgiliath with, "Hey, I'd better watch out, the ring is in Mordor." Instead he would view it the same way the Book Sauron did: "The Lords of the West are preparing to use my ring against me."

Oh I agree basically with all points there. But as a military general you would assume the first thing he would do would be to attempt to regain the ring IMMEDIATLY since it was so close to him now. He knows of no great armies massing in Osgiliath but he does know the ring is there now. So even if they were getting ready to use the ring against him they obvisously werent ready yet. Especially since the bridge was out right? So fly Nazgul! Before it can be taken elsewhere and secure the ring while we still know where it is and while its clear they arent about to move agaisnt us with it.

[Black Breathalizer]

I don't disagree with you, Insidious Rex. In fact, this is exactly what Sauron did. But instead of only sending his Nazgul, I'm predicting he'll sent them AND an entire army against Gondor.

We'll see if my prediction is right when ROTK comes out.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I don't disagree with you, Insidious Rex. In fact, this is exactly what Sauron did. But instead of only sending his Nazgul, I'm predicting he'll sent them AND an entire army against Gondor.

We'll see if my prediction is right when ROTK comes out.

well that is of course what will happen in the third movie because that whole ring showing scene was already forgotten essentially before the second movie ended. which is what bothers me so much.... Now you know what I would do if I was Sauron but hey my military thinking on this may be incorrect. I mean thats probably why Sauron earns more then I do.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Black BreathalizerBut instead of only sending his Nazgul, I'm predicting he'll sent them AND an entire army against Gondor.

In the book, Sauron sent his forces to Gondor after having a little "chat" with Aragorn through Saruman's PalantÃ*r. Since the heroes didn't recover the PalantÃ*r in the movie, you prediction could very well be right.
But my prediction is that in the beginning of RotK we will see how Aragorn gets his hands on and uses the PalantÃ*r. Sauron will get frightened as he did in the book, and throw everything he got at Gondor. Not to get the Ring, but to defeat Gondor as soon as possible.

[Entlover]

I think the whole scene was a bad idea on PJ's part. However, it's there now.
I don't think the pteradactyl or whatever it was would recognize the ring when it saw it, anymore than a horse would. That's not a danger.
The Nazgul may have sensed it, but it would have known a hobbit held it - which conveys what information to Sauron? What is a hobbit doing with the ring if Gandalf or Aragorn has it? Makes no sense.
I agree with Jonathan, that Aragorn better look in the palantir and chat with Sauron, to disabuse him of the notion that a hobbit has the ring if nothing else.

[Elfhelm]

Frodo DOES reveal the One Ring to Faramir. That's the only correction I have to offer the post.

But I agree with several others that Sauron will think the Ring is with Gondor and turn his eye there allowing Frodo and Sam to sneak up the back stair.

I really don't like the whole Osgiliath thing. In cinema can't Faramir just tell the Hobbits about Osgiliath and we would see pictures. My Faramir would never go against the decision of the Council of the Wise.

[Aranwe]

The Nazgul seeing Frodo with the ring isn't really a problem, if he did infact see it (poor vision in daylight). The witch-king already saw Frodo PUT ON the ring at weathertop (in both the movie and book, at night). So Gandalf hoping that Sauron seeing Pippin would help their cause is wrong - Sauron already knows that Pippin isn't carrying the ring, he would more than likely just try and find out where the ring is.

As for the ring being at Osgiliath... this actually makes more sense to me than Sauron never knowing where it is. Why would Men take the ring to Osgiliath, which is under attack, if they didn't plan to use it as a weapon against Sauron?

He would assume that the ring was taken back to Gondor by those that escaped from Osgiliath, and so would want to attack Gondor before they found out how to use the ring. It says somewhere in the books that the ring is difficult for anyone to learn to use, even someone as powerful as gandalf.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Aranwe
So Gandalf hoping that Sauron seeing Pippin would help their cause is wrong - Sauron already knows that Pippin isn't carrying the ring, he would more than likely just try and find out where the ring is.

How does he know that? All he knows is a halfling has the ring. And walla theres a halfling starring at him in the palantir. Can he tell its the wrong one?

As for the ring being at Osgiliath... this actually makes more sense to me than Sauron never knowing where it is. Why would Men take the ring to Osgiliath, which is under attack, if they didn't plan to use it as a weapon against Sauron?

Ok but the point is if he saw it at Osgiliath still with a hobbit knowing they are cut off from Gondor and knowing just how close Osgiliath is to Mordor why not IMMEDIATLY send everything down on that location in an attempt to get the ring. Certainly send ALL the nazgul because flying time is pretty brief from Minas Morgul, probably just minutes. So unless ALL the nazgul just happen to be on the other side of middle earth on some errand or something then showing the ring still in the hands of a hobbit at Osgiliath is basically giving away the game in my opinion. What we were debating about before in this thread is do the nazgul actually sense the ring or not. because if they dont then of course it would be a lot harder for them to find it again even if they are in the nieghborhood but if they do well then.... game over.

[Dunadan]

You're quite right. That, and aren't Nazgul supposed to be "drawn to the ring" at all times, "feeling its presence" (Aragorn in the first movie, I believe).

It is possible to justify that scene, as above, but it requires some pretty nimble mental gymnastics. To me it was much more about maxing the scary undead screen time.

I wonder how much sense it made to folks who hadn't read the book?

[Aranwe]

Can he tell its the wrong one?

I would assume so... but maybe not

Ok but the point is if he saw it at Osgiliath still with a hobbit knowing they are cut off from Gondor

They aren't cut off, how would Faramir escape if they were?

And if Sauron thinks that they will try and use the ring against him, it would be dumb to send all his wraiths to attack. What if gandalf had the ring? If Eowyn can kill the witch-king with a sword I'm sure gandalf could easily fend off an attack from all 9 wraiths if he had the ring.

Also, when they are in Bree, Aragorn says that the wraiths do not attack openly unless they are desperate. The quote is something like "In dark and loneliness they are strongest. They will not openly attack a house where there are many people."

If they wont attack a house with unarmed peasants there's no way they would attack a defended city, in daylight.

They also fled from weathertop when the ring was defended only by a few hobbits and a single man. They didn't even know who aragorn was at the time, so they couldn't have been scared for that reason.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Aranwe
They aren't cut off, how would Faramir escape if they were?

More to the point, how they get to the West side of the river with the bridges down? And how will Frodo get back across?

What if gandalf had the ring? If Eowyn can kill the witch-king with a sword I'm sure gandalf could easily fend off an attack from all 9 wraiths if he had the ring.

Gandalf states that it would take a long time to master the Ring. Some have argued that it took Merry's Numenorean blade combined with Eowyn to kill him. Pretty unlikely.

They also fled from weathertop when the ring was defended only by a few hobbits and a single man. They didn't even know who aragorn was at the time, so they couldn't have been scared for that reason.

Fair comment; often wondered that myself. It's passed off as them being over-confident that the "long leagues of Eriador" giving the knife enough time to do its thang. Bit dodgy, really, but to do with the original plot, not the film (ducks for cover).

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
You're quite right. That, and aren't Nazgul supposed to be "drawn to the ring" at all times, "feeling its presence" (Aragorn in the first movie, I believe).

Thats the impression I get again and again. Especially when we see one sniffing around when Frodo and the others are hiding under the root. Is he smelling hobbit or the ring? Im assuming the ring.

It is possible to justify that scene, as above, but it requires some pretty nimble mental gymnastics. To me it was much more about maxing the scary undead screen time.

Absolutely. Technical ramifications be damned.

I wonder how much sense it made to folks who hadn't read the book?

Im guessing it was perfectly fine for people who didnt understand the details. Because all that happened was a typical hollywood close call. Oh no if he gets the ring all hope is lost! Whew! He didnt get the ring. Ok everything is fine and back to normal now. I guess we can have a third movie now.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Aranwe
They aren't cut off, how would Faramir escape if they were?

But the bridge is out isnt it? and they are on the wrong side of the river. So getting accross is a bit of a chore.

And if Sauron thinks that they will try and use the ring against him, it would be dumb to send all his wraiths to attack. What if gandalf had the ring? If Eowyn can kill the witch-king with a sword I'm sure gandalf could easily fend off an attack from all 9 wraiths if he had the ring.

Also, when they are in Bree, Aragorn says that the wraiths do not attack openly unless they are desperate. The quote is something like "In dark and loneliness they are strongest. They will not openly attack a house where there are many people."

If they wont attack a house with unarmed peasants there's no way they would attack a defended city, in daylight.

They also fled from weathertop when the ring was defended only by a few hobbits and a single man. They didn't even know who aragorn was at the time, so they couldn't have been scared for that reason.

Hmm well I never really saw the Nazgul as such fragile little creatures. They are supposed to be pretty freaking dangerous from what I understand. And the only reason she killed one was because she had the right kind of sword. Also why would the nazgul be there at all trying to get the ring from Frodo if they arent willing to go after the enemy in day light. And the issue I have is that the whole long chase scene to rivendell where they ALMOST get caught shows that the nazgul are really very persistant and will stop at nothing to get that ring. and when one realizes its there they ALL swarm down with their horses and chase after them. So why wouldnt the same thing happen at Osgiliath when they have winged creatures now not just horses and when they are so much closer to Mordor? After weathertop they just regrouped they didnt run off. They prefer to attack in groups.

[Aranwe]

Also why would the nazgul be there at all trying to get the ring from Frodo if they arent willing to go after the enemy in day light

They weren't after Frodo... they were attacking Osgiliath, with a large number of orcs and wild men (in the book, at least, you don't actually see this in the movie, it just shows huge rocks being thrown presumably from catapults). When Faramir received the message that they were under attack he and his rangers went to help.

Some have argued that it took Merry's Numenorean blade combined with Eowyn to kill him.

Merry only hit him in the foot though, and probably not very hard (weak hobbit ). It's Eowyn's blow that kills him; after Merry hits his foot the witch king shrieks in pain (ie not dead), but after Eowyn's stab he immediately falls (ie dead).

While the wraiths cannot be killed, they can be hurt and banished, sometimes taking days to recover. Gandalf says soemthing about this in FotR after they are overcome by the river.

But the bridge is out isnt it? and they are on the wrong side of the river. So getting accross is a bit of a chore.

I thought the bridge was taken, not destroyed - so Faramir and his men could fight their way through. I can't actually remember whether it was only taken though. If it is destroyed they'll probably be shown fleeing in boats across the river or something in RotK.

Also why would the nazgul be there at all trying to get the ring from Frodo if they arent willing to go after the enemy in day light

They are willing, but only in the right circumstances when they absolutely must. i.e. one she-elf vs 9 wraiths. They were unwilling at weathertop to risk a fight because they thought they had enough time before they would reach rivendell to try again.

Thats the impression I get again and again. Especially when we see one sniffing around when Frodo and the others are hiding under the root. Is he smelling hobbit or the ring? Im assuming the ring.

They can sense the presence of the ring, but I don't think they can really locate it without seeing it (if they could see it at all in daylight) or it being on someones finger. Otherwise the wraith would have found the hobbits hiding under the tree root.