08-04-2004, 04:22 PM | #41 | |||
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Ok,here are my thoughts:
I don't see why you can't logically come to the conclusion that God exists. However, I think that both theories can be reconciled easily. Maybe people jump to that conclusion because God already set His knolwedge in their hearts. Quote:
Not good enough? Zeus himself is a god to make the Greeks happy. His escapades are legendary: Diane, Lydia, Europa, etc... certainly that is a figure many men can identify with and relate to. A god you can relate to is a god that makes you happy. Among the Ancient Egyptians' religious beliefs is that Egypt is the sky's image on earth and they strove to make it more so. I think they compared the Nile to the Milky Way or something, and what's really amazing, if you draw a line through the three stars known as Orion's belt, you'll find that the thrid star deviates from that line a little bit. If you do the same with an aerial photo of the three pyramids, you find the exact same situation: a line running straight through the centers of the first two, while the thrid deviates from that line a little bit. Even the pyramids' relative sizes reflect these three stars' relative brightness. Anyway, I drifted , my point is: they created these beliefs because it made them feel proud and important. Quote:
Anyway, here's my thought about the Tree: God forbade to Adam and Eve the fruit of the Tree of knowledge (I knew He couldn't have forbidden the Tree itself, but bear with me please!), so considering the metaphor in this statement, God forbids us the fruit of knowledge not knowledge itself. That fruit being, as I said earlier, a godhead and a feeling of equality with God or even a complete denial of God's existence. So I would say that it's okay to pursue knowledge with moderation, keeping God in sight always. As to scientific curiosity that prods people to pursue knowledge, well we have the promise that that's going to be satisfied in Heaven. Paul mentioned something to that effect in his letter to the Hebrews, I think (Sorry can't find the CD with the English version of the Bible right now, so I can't post the exact quote). After all, science can't be that bad, Einstein once said: "The more I observe the universe, the more I believe in a higher power." (or something close to that). From one of your earlier posts: Quote:
P.S. Get well soon! EDIT: Brownjenkins, you're welcome to join in the discussion I think both of you (brownjenkins and RÃ*an) would also enjoy discussion in The Da Vinci Code thread in this forum, if you've read the book that is. Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-05-2004 at 05:51 PM. |
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08-04-2004, 06:37 PM | #42 |
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(Thanks for your "get well" wishes, Beren! )
(I saw your note about French in the Jane Eyre thread; I'll have to ask you what some phrases are in Egyptian! That would be interesting to hear. How many languages do you speak? What's your native tongue?) The explanation about destroy/raise up the temple (John 2:19) is found two verses down - John 2:21,22. Jesus was speaking of his body and prophesizing his death and resurrection. His earthly body was destroyed, and God raised Him up on the third day. Is that the question you meant? EDIT - OH, it finally penetrated my brain what you meant by that question! You looked up John TWO:19; I was saying John THREE:19! Try again (ps - Hi, brownie! I'm still gonna get to that comparative religion thread one day soon, but I've been feeling really punk lately bad health Jump in here whenever you want, tho, I always enjoy your posts. You might want to re-read PL - the language reminds me of Tolkien's "Lays of Beleriand", HOME 3 - really strong and beautiful! You could almost skip dinner if you read PL or Lays, they're so meaty! ) Good point about the fruit, Beren - let me ponder that a bit - I have to drive to another city now to return something, and that'll give me some time to think.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-04-2004 at 06:40 PM. |
08-05-2004, 11:35 AM | #43 | |
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08-05-2004, 02:33 PM | #44 |
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Well, now, that's very odd. The only thing I can think of is that the Bibles used in the Coptic church might have different numbering than the ones used in America. I've triple-checked, and the temple verse is John 2:19, and the verse I'm talking about is John 3:19. Well, that certainly is a bother, if our Bibles have different reference numbers!
I assume you're familiar with the famous verse "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life" - that's John 3:16 (made semi-infamous by people holding up signs with that verse during sporting events here in America - hopefully they aren't drunk and obnoxious - it seems like "Christians" on TV are too often not acting in a loving Christian manner *sigh*) Well, the verse I'm talking about is only 3 verses down from that one. For your reference, it is: "And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-05-2004 at 02:34 PM. |
08-05-2004, 05:47 PM | #45 |
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Sorry, my bad . Our bibles do have the same reference numbers. I just rechecked and it turned out I read 2:19 not 3:19.
(Side note: this verse "For God so loved the world....", I've once read that it's the most famous verse in the whole Bible and in that hotel we were staying in, it was printed on the first few pages of the Bible in all the languages you can imagine). Anyway, that verse still doesn't make much sense to me! You're suggesting that people rejected God and became atheists because their deeds were evil so they chose that path. Well, that's all fine but it doesn't explain why atheism is rather modern and why (even though the Middle Ages were more evil with the corruption of the church and all that...) people of the Middle Ages were more pious than us and the tendency to atheism was small, if there. So how about replying to the rest of my previous post? Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-05-2004 at 05:48 PM. |
08-06-2004, 05:06 PM | #46 |
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It'll have to wait until Monday - weekends are really bad for me to Moot! Go ahead and post any other thoughts you have, tho, and I'll get to them on Monday. Have a nice weekend, all!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-06-2004, 06:18 PM | #47 | |
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Ok, I'd like to add some more opinions about your statement: "People invent Gods that make them happy"
Here's a stark contradiction of this statement: In Norse mythology, heaven = Valhalla and hell = Nifelheim. As usual, the bad guys go to Nifelheim and the good ones (the "heroes" as they put it) go to Valhalla. Now the thing is, a great conviction of theirs was that eventually, the inhabitants of Nifelheim will rebel and destroy Valhalla utterly. So they basically believed that evil will triumph in the end. YET, they still strove to be "good" and go to Valhalla. Knowing that you're inevitably doomed doesn't exactly "make you happy" does it? EDIT: from one of your earlier posts: Quote:
You're a five year old girl (for the sake of argument of course ) and you have to go to sleep on your own with the lights out and the door closed. Your parents aren't around, what do you do? You grab your teddy bear and pretend it's a 1000-pound giant with a club or something that would protect you from all the "ghosts and monsters" around the room. Now apply that to real life: a Zulu tribesman struggles daily just to ensure he lives to see the next day. He needs to feel protected and "nursed" if you will. Who does he turn to? All of his fellow tribesmen are "under the same pains". But wait! look at the Sun, how it shines magnificiently! How bright and strong it is! Surely no lion can eat the Sun or enemy tribes kill it. The Sun must be the most powerful being in the universe. The Sun must be GOD! I'll worship the Sun to ensure my protection, etc... And know a new cult has been born: the cult of the Sun (btw, I don't know about Zulu men worshipping the Sun, I'm just making an example). Result: Zulu people are happier and more productive. It's true that God set a concept of His existence in this man's heart, but he wasn't aware of it until now. And it's NOT a matter of "luxury dulling the senses" it's IMO, a logical process based on observation of the world. (Side note: remember Freud's theory "religion is derived from filial feelings"? here's a nice pun related to it: in Arabic, a father is also called "the lord of the family". Lord as in "I am the Lord thy God." not as in "English nobility") (This doesn't mean the father is given any divine connotation, but it's a nice pun, IMO) P.S. Enjoy your weekend, too (BTW, in Arab countries the weekend is on Thursday, Friday not Saturday, Sunday. But it makes no difference to me nowadays as I'm on summer vacation ) Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-06-2004 at 06:49 PM. |
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08-11-2004, 06:37 PM | #48 | ||||
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OK, I'm finally back here - summers with 3 kids at home make for less Entmoot time!
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In the meantime, tho, I think that altho one can't come up with a "scientific" proof that God exists (there are MANY things that one can't come up with a "scientific" proof for!), that it is indeed possible to come to a logical conclusion that He exists. I also think that God places a rudimentary knowledge of His existence and His moral laws into people's hearts. Quote:
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I think when analyzing the questions "is there a God?" and "if so, is it the God as described in the Bible?", a valuable tool is to assume the truth of the statement and then analyze what you can see around you and see if it fits. Next, assume that the statement is false, then analyze what you can see around you and see if it fits. (I think this method works well for any question that cannot be scientifically evaluated.) What I was doing here was assuming that those statements about God were, in fact, FALSE. Be sure to catch this important distinction - I'm NOT merely assuming that I'm an atheist; I'm assuming that regardless of what I believe, that it is indeed a FACT that there is no God. And if I assume that it is a FACT that there is no God, then I don't see WHY people would invent a God like the God described in the Bible. I think it would be more natural to invent a god like the one I described, if they ever invented one at all. I don't see an explanation for people's sense of morality, either. And when I take the opposite position and assume that it's a FACT that God exists, as described in the Bible, I see an amazing match with what I see around me. But that's just MHO
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-11-2004 at 06:40 PM. |
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08-11-2004, 06:43 PM | #49 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-11-2004, 06:49 PM | #50 | ||
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I don't know that the Middle Ages were more evil in general ... as you noted, people in the ME were generally more pious. I think each age has its good points and bad points. So about atheism - I think that's one way of many that people reject God. And ANY time people reject God, it's because they prefer their rebellion and don't want to acknowledge their sin as sin. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-11-2004, 06:59 PM | #51 | ||||
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(whew, there must be a better way to phrase that - did it make any sense?) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-13-2004, 03:25 PM | #52 |
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Interesting quote by Lewis. I'd just love to get my hands on Mere Christianity.
Anyway, I think we went wildly off-topic here. I don't think we'll ever reach a mutual agreement as to this topic. I do support the fact that there is some rudimentary knowledge of God in all of us but I don't think it's strictly responsible for the process of deiogenesis (if such a term exists ). Anyway, let's try getting back on topic. Let's explore other aspects of knowledge. Setting atheism aside, I still find that knowledge somewhat lessens our dependence on God. I mean, before, when someone fell ill people first prayed to God and brought priests in for unction (not Extreme Unction!) and exorcism and what have you. Nowadays, you just speed-dial your doctor (it doesn't make you any less of a believer, but it does make you less DEPENDENT on God, it makes you lose your primeval simplicity and innocence.)Am I making sense so far? Another example. What first was God's covenant to Noah that He shall never drown the world in deluge again (inspiring awe in people and moving them to contemplate God's beauty and the wonder of His Creation) now became the everyday phenomenon of light refraction. See what I'm getting at? Let me hear your opinion... |
08-16-2004, 05:33 PM | #53 |
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Hmm, I see what you're saying about knowledge, but I still don't know that I completely agree...
I think it's dependant on the underlying heart attitude, but I see your point. It would have been interesting to see how the world turned out, as far as desire/need for knowledge, if people remained sinless. *muses a bit* Hmm, here's some initial thoughts. I haven't thought them through much, but I'll put them out 1. A lot of knowledge is sought to fix the effects of sin, because knowledge was sought by those who wished to do evil. The vast majority of the grief in this world is because of sin and its effects. So often, knowledge is sought to assuage the effects of sin, and wouldn't be necessary if there was not sin. For example - someone figured out how to use chemical weapons to hurt/kill people. So therefore, someone had to work to gain knowledge on how to treat the victims of chemical warfare. Now we wouldn't have to work to gain knowlege on how to treat victims, if there were no victims. Do you see what I mean? What do you think? 2. Knowledge is good, but love is better. I love reading, and it's fun to learn new things, but when I'm with my husband and family and friends, I don't sneak out of the room to pick up an encyclopedia, because I'd rather be with them. And my husband earned his masters degree so he could get a better job. He had to study and write papers many times when he would have rather been with family and friends. I don't think the job structure would be the way it is now if there was no sin, and I think entire fields of knowledge would be useless. Conversely, I think entire fields of knowledge would be more important, too, if there had been no sin. Overall, I think knowledge is thought of the way that it is BECAUSE there is sin in the world. There is nothing wrong with knowledge, and much good that can be done with knowledge, and I think it's great to explore and learn, but priorities are way out of place in this world because of sin, and an entire lifestyle has been created in reaction to it. Anyway, just some musings ... what do you think?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-16-2004, 05:37 PM | #54 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 06:23 PM | #55 | |
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Another effect of the pursuit of knowledge (as my mother added when I talked to her about that discussion), many people nowadays seek to philosophise too deeply about life and the nature of things and all that; and it is that that draws them away from God. It is that loss of simplicity, the need to complicate things if you will, that draws them away from God; slowly but surely. Pondering questions of Creation too much can be frustrating (after all, mortal minds can't possibly encompass God's full Nature, can they?) and would lead to estrangment from God. After all, Christ taught us to accept God's kingdom "as kids" or else we would not see it. He meant that we should have a simple outlook on life: God created us, God wills all and we just have to obey and love. Any more philosophy is extraneous if not harmful. See what I mean? (and what my mother means? ) EDIT: I agree with your the 2 thoughts you advanced in your other post. I'll add more thoughts later (it's 2:30 AM here!). Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-16-2004 at 06:26 PM. |
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08-18-2004, 04:19 PM | #56 | |||||
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Anyway, just some thoughts. I see your point overall, and agree with it overall, but I think there's some more detail involved. There are 2 great summation verses that I like - one in the OT and one in the NT - that sum up things simply but thoroughly - in the OT, Micah 6:8-9, and in the NT, Matthew 22:37-40. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-18-2004 at 04:20 PM. |
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08-18-2004, 04:40 PM | #57 | ||||
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To bring up another aspect of Paradise Lost that I really liked and found very realistic - the relationship between Adam and Eve!
I just love how Milton shows the effects of sin via their conversation, rather than prose (like "and this is what sin did to them ..."). Here's a pre-sin Adam talking to Eve (she's sleeping, and he is waking her up): Quote:
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But then it ends up so beautifully, as they eventually see their need to "own up" to their own actions, and repent, and they even try to excuse the other person! What a heart change, and he presents it so skillfully - you see little bits of it fall into place during their conversation, and then a few more, and then finally a whole heart change. Here's the final bit: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-18-2004 at 04:44 PM. |
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08-20-2004, 11:40 AM | #58 |
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This time I completely agree with you. The relationship between Adam and Eve is so realistic and so beautiful and I think that Milton not only uses it to show the effects of sin, he also uses it to illustrate love in its pure and absolute form. Before the Fall, their relationship was so sweet and beautiful and the love between them so innocent, it makes you sad to watch what happened to them after the Fall.
One of the things I liked about the book too is the amount of Hope put in it. Right after the fall, Michael comes down and tells Adam everything that's going to happen and how Jesus will eventually come to Earth and redeem all human kind so that Adam need not worry about his offspring. By the way, have you read The Divine Comedy? I've recently read the Inferno and found it very deep and enjoying such a level of structural and allegorical complexity that qualifies it to be one of the finest works of literature ever made. But I find the views expressed in it a bit too strict. But that's for another thread As to the 2 thoughts you brought forth earlier, here's what I think: I agree with point 2 completely. After all, as you quoted, this is "the Law and the Prophets". However, I beg to differ on point 1. This can be true in some cases but certainly not in all. When you establish medical research to find cure from some disease, that's fixing the effects of sin, alright. But when you observe the stars for instance, you're not fixing the effects of sin, you merely seek knowledge for its own sake. This pursuit of knowledge is due to curiosity only: it doesn't aim to advance mankind in any (practical) way. And (I believe) that it's this kind of so-called "idle" knowledge that can be harmful. It is not evil in itself, but it is dangerous inasmuch as it makes people stray with their thoughts from God and turn to alien doctrines. On the other hand, knowledge that seeks to fix the effects of sin is (IMO) less dangerous. It doesn't seek to endoctrine people, just to make their lives easier (and herein lies its danger, as I said earlier) but at the end of the day, it seems much less dangerous to me. Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-21-2004 at 03:02 PM. |
08-20-2004, 02:52 PM | #59 | |||
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Did you read PL in your native language, or in English? (what's your native language, btw, and how many languages do you speak?) Quote:
I have to go now, but I'll be back later with some new passages to share. One of the things I like is how much he can pack into only a few words. I picked out a few phrases that are only a few words, but have a world of meaning. I'll post them in a bit, and then maybe you can pick some of your favorite "short but profound" ones to share with me
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-20-2004, 03:47 PM | #60 |
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I read PL in English. I always try to read literature in its original language if I can help it.
As to The Comedy, I read a good, semi-poetry version by an American translator called John Ciardi. About your other questions: My native language is Arabic; I speak French and English quite well. Two years ago, I tried to learn German (and have picked up some basics) but I found it hard to keep going with it what with school going on and all I have no "phrases" to share with you from PL, I'm afraid. I read it a while ago and barely remember the wording. There was this part I particularly liked though: the part where Satan says he can't really escape Hell because Envy creates Hell within himself. Such strong words! Enjoy your weekend |
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