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03-31-2003, 04:55 PM | #41 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-31-2003 at 05:03 PM. |
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03-31-2003, 09:25 PM | #42 |
Long lost mooter
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How are you making the P thing?
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04-01-2003, 12:49 AM | #43 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm cutting and pasting, but I imagine it's one of the alt-number code thingies...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-01-2003, 02:09 AM | #44 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Þ->s
I think it's interesting to see that while the majority of the people changed Þ to s, there were a few 'learned' persons who opposed it. It reminds me of a few linguistic debates that goes on today. A language in daily use is bound to change due to changes in society and influence from other languages. I wonder what was the origin of the change from Þ to s in Quenya. I know it says 'phonetic taste and theory', but someone must have started it? Maybe the Noldor were influenced by the Valar? Or was it just part of a constant struggle to improve their own language?
You see, azalea, I can do a bit of speculations meself Quote:
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04-01-2003, 02:34 AM | #45 | |||
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04-01-2003, 10:28 AM | #46 |
Long lost mooter
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Oh, thanks! That is interesting. I tried to find Letters at the library, but couldn't figure out which section it would be. I'll look again today.
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04-03-2003, 02:58 PM | #47 |
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I didn't find Letters, but I checked out a couple of more HoMEs.
So, doesn't anyone want to comment on my "mythology" bit? Are we as the reader to look at The Silmarillion as 1. A mythology of the elves 2. A mythology for us (the reader/ the world at large/ Britain) 3. A historical account written by an elf, and "translated" by Tolkien? Or is it a combination of those? I often wonder about what Tolkien would have thought about the reader's relationship w/ the book. Did he plan on eventually publishing it, or is that just something that Christopher decided to do? If he never intended for it to be published, I wonder how Tolkien himself saw the writings (as we see them in The Silm.) with regards to the catagories I posted above. Or have I missed a catagory? What are your thoughts? I happen to ask this in this particular chapter because as I said (or maybe I didn't, I forget), to me in this chapter we get into the "meat" of the story -- we are no longer dealing primarily w/ the "supernatural" beings, the story has shifted to be that of the elves. And it is here that we meet a lot of the major players, so to speak. It is because of this that I started to think more about the "why" of the story -- knowing that it was supposed to have been written by the elves. Here the mood of the story shifts from a creation myth to a history (besides the story of Thingol and Melian, but that is jsut a short chapter focused on one thing), but he retains that mythology feel to a lesser degree throughout the book. |
04-03-2003, 02:59 PM | #48 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Þ->s
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-03-2003, 03:11 PM | #49 | |
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-15-2007 at 02:07 PM. |
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04-03-2003, 03:13 PM | #50 | |
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And she gave Gimli three. In your face Feanor!
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04-03-2003, 05:14 PM | #51 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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"Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good."
I think it means: given that the Orcs exist, God must have accepted/tolerated their making (because life only comes from God), so they are a part of His creation, which is good (although by choice of people it can be corrupted). JRRT said in another letter that he does not believe in absolute evil, because absolute evil must be zero - IOW, things like intelligence and creativity are good, although they can be used for bad purposes, so a being that is TOTALLY evil cannot even have things like intelligence, because intelligence is good. (whew, what a sentence - I hope that made sense )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-04-2003, 02:32 AM | #52 | ||
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04-04-2003, 10:58 AM | #53 | |
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About mythology. Tolkien said that his first impulse was to create a mythology for Britain similar to the mythologies of other parts of the world (Norse mainly). He later abandoned that project and switched it into a "history" of the elves. Though the concept of history is perhaps not proper to be used with elves. As you said, this history, written by the elves was supposed to have been translated from what Aelfwine brought from Eressëa (or from the Translations from the Elves in Red Book of Westmarch). However what we find in Silm is not only history. The myths are still there, though not in the main plot. What i like of those myths is how they reffer to "our" universal myths: the Creation, the demiurgic powers (the Valar), the origin of the evil, the golden age, the falling of Atlantis... As Christopher says in Morgoth's Ring, he later repented of the way of some of those myths, because he thought them impossible in the elves. Then he fiddled with the idea of transforming the myths into mannish myths created in Numenor and later carried to Middle Earth and to us. But that was only an idea and it's not present in what we read in Silm. i don't think i have made any sense. these are difficult questions
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04-04-2003, 02:49 PM | #54 |
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No, FM, that all makes perfect sense! Thanks, and thanks also, Lefty -- that was a good explanation.
Ooh, I can't wait to read about Galadriel dissing Feanor! It makes Gimli's gift seem all the more special! |
04-04-2003, 03:46 PM | #55 | ||
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Edit: Noticed RÃ*an's explanation just now, I think mine is slightly different from hers
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04-04-2003, 09:08 PM | #56 |
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I can testify that among Tolkein fans in the 1960's (and there were many of us) it was well-known that JRRT was working on The Silmarillion, and we waited breathlessly for its publication. People who visited JRRT saw the great work in progress and reported exerpts in the various Tolkein newsletters (no Internet in those days, kids!) I shall never forget, finally in 1977 seeing stacks of the Sil at a bookshop at Northpark in Dallas, and how I clutched one to my bosom in my hurry to have it for my own, finally. I now know that JRRT could never get everything resolved, in his own mind (i.e., the origin of Orcs) and so it was incomplete at the time of his death. Christopher was of course aware of the huge, pent-up demand, and cobbled it together. Later, apparently, he repented of his haste and wished it had been dne more carefully.
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04-08-2003, 12:30 PM | #57 | ||||||
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*pant, pant* I completely forgot to check for the next chapter!
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04-09-2003, 07:08 PM | #58 | |
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EDIT to Add: Here is the link to the first page.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 04-09-2003 at 07:14 PM. |
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04-11-2003, 06:29 PM | #59 |
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OK, I will post this here for the attention it needs. This project seems as though it may fall through. We are now at the due date for another chapter: (chapter 6) without someone to do it. azalea was kind enough to take over the last chapter, and post the intro, and did a great job. We seem to be faced with the same problem with chapter 6, which was originally to be introduced by Dunadan.
Anyone, that has any interest in posting the intro to this chapter, so that the project may continue, please post in the "Silmarillion reassignment" thread, that is stuck to the top of the main page. Thank you.
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09-30-2018, 04:55 AM | #60 |
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I never quite noticed but the sex ratio among Finwë's descendants is dreadfully screwed up. Only two women to what, sixteen men?! I know this is partly due to Tolkien needing a lot of heroes for the roles and fights he was planning. But dude, Galadriel and Aredhel must have been so fed up with their brothers and cousins at times.
Since I noticed in the previous chapters that the Valar weren't particularly concerned with the Elves that didn't complete the journey from Middle-earth, in this chapter you actually have two outright rebellious acts from Ossë and Ulmo that make sure more Elves do not reach Aman. Ossë outright convinced Elves to stay behind and Ulmo leaves Tol Eressëa right outside the boundaries of Aman. That the Valar do not appear to take countermeasures does seem to reinforce the idea that while the Valar loved to have all the Eldar in Aman, their free will, their choice to do otherwise was that important to the Valar that they didn't intervene. I like that. It does seem interesting that Ossë teaches both the Falathrim and the Teleri on Tol Eressëa the art of shipbuilding, but only to the Teleri does he give the strong-winged swans to pull those boats. Almost as if he is unwilling to give the Teleri the means to sail themselves for fear they would use it to leave his domain. Or was that just for the first journey? The Teleri would need boats they could steer themselves if they ever wanted to visit Tol Eressëa again and meet Ossë there. |