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02-12-2003, 02:33 PM | #41 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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All good stuff.
Does anyone else agree that this chapter had Tolkien throwing in a lot more ambiguities in general? Is that a deliberate act to represent how the world was getting more complicated and uncertain? cheers d. |
02-13-2003, 02:33 PM | #42 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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fading
Quote:
Quote:
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02-13-2003, 02:39 PM | #43 | |
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Quote:
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02-14-2003, 08:52 AM | #44 |
Elven Warrior
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I think that only the Elves who remained in M-E faded. Though, in Morgoth's Ring, it is written that All Elves, even of Aman, will become spirits, it was I belive, crossed out. In early versions, (BoLT) there were faded Elves all over the place, only visible to some human people.
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02-18-2003, 10:26 AM | #45 |
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There's another thing that bugs me: The Valar didn't make war against Sauron until the Elves had awoke, because they didn't know where the Elves would come, and they were afraid of damaging the land too much. But when they finally did go to war, they seemed to have had no such concern for the Followers, Men, and their place of awakening.
Any thoughts?
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02-18-2003, 10:29 AM | #46 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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But what if they had done nothing at all?
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02-18-2003, 10:54 AM | #47 | |
im quite stupid
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Quote:
Of course this leads to bigger issues going back to a previous post about bthe origional plan. Was it in the plan that melkor would be evil was it in the origional plan for the valar to remove from middle earth? here is not the time or place to do that really but the point is the main problem was the valar had removed to valinor so to teach the elves they had to bring them there. At the time before the elves came i believe that the valar were more concerned with making rather than healing. was it yavanna that returned occasionally to undo some of the hurt of melkor? IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided.
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02-18-2003, 11:15 AM | #48 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
From the published Silmarillion: Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-19-2003, 03:47 AM | #49 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
Quote:
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02-19-2003, 08:43 AM | #50 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-19-2003, 12:52 PM | #51 |
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The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
Artanis,
I don't know where in the book it states that the Elves were afraid of the water. So, I can not answer your question pertaining to that. Melkor made the Orcs, the Dragons, and the Balrogs. Orcs were bred from the Elves that fled Orome when he came to lead them from the east across Arda to Valinor. (They had been made afraid by Melkor/Morgoth's lies about the Valar.) Melkor/Morgoth could not make anything beautiful, so he made things deliberately fell to mock the making of the Children of Iluvitar. I do not remember what Dragons and Balrogs were made from. |
02-19-2003, 02:13 PM | #52 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Hello Ruinel, and welcome!
The Balrogs were Maiar, angelic spirits created by Eru himself. I'm not sure what the Dragons were, I suppose they could have been Maiar as well.
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02-19-2003, 02:19 PM | #53 |
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Balrogs et al
Artanis,
Where did you read that balrogs were Maiar? (curious) |
02-19-2003, 02:36 PM | #54 | ||
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From the Silmarillion, Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor:
Quote:
Quote:
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02-19-2003, 02:40 PM | #55 |
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Balrogs et al
Wow! I had forgotten all about that (the Maiar that were corrupted by Melkor)! Thanks for reminding me.
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02-19-2003, 03:17 PM | #56 |
Long lost mooter
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Artanis, thanks for that quote from Letters about the fading. I have seen fading discussed before, but for some reason, it clicked w/ me this time. So I can now see the ULTIMATE purpose of taking the elves to Valinor. It was to educate them, so that their knowledge could then pass on to men. This seems like a logical divine plan, but then it led me to another question: why not skip elves and just have men? That way, the learning wouldn't be secondhand. Since men were to have the ultimate dominion (as evidenced by the fading), why have the elves awaken at all? (Not that I don't like elves, but I just wonder what the speculation is on this).
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02-19-2003, 03:51 PM | #57 |
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I think that the elves were a beautiful and worthwhile creation in themselves, and well worth making from that angle alone. I guess one of their purposes was to teach men, but they had many others. And maybe since they are closer in power to men (unlike the Ainur), then men could feel more akin to them and learn better from them.
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02-19-2003, 03:58 PM | #58 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
Elves also had a worth of their own. Saying that Elves were really not needed is like saying: "I already have one child that shall be the heir of all my possessions, I don't need another child." What kind of father would Ilúvater be if he reasoned like that.
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02-24-2003, 11:23 PM | #59 |
Long lost mooter
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Thanks for both of your answers. They certainly make sense, and I of course am glad that there were elves. But I could still see a world where men were made with some of the same traits elves had, and so eliminating the need for them. I guess their literary purpose is to serve as "perfect humans," as others have mentioned (somewhere). They also add depth, richness, etc. to the mythology. But it is sad that they were only temporary residents of ME, and that's what led me to that question. Why create something so wonderful just to take them away? I guess having men and elves co-exist when "the time of man" had come would lead to a lot of strife. It's still sad, though.
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02-25-2003, 03:21 AM | #60 |
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One of the chief purposes of the Elves was to fight Melkor, I think. And another was to be the living memory of the Elder days in Middle-Earth.
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