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04-18-2006, 04:54 PM | #41 | |
Elf Lord
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"It isn't a religious phenomenon, it's a human phenomenon." It's a problem with human political systems, that involves religion only as it (religion) impacts politics. Any other system of "ethics" could be subsititued, and probably has been. Secular humanism, communism, and lets not forget the multitudes of plain raw power grabs in the name of "The People"... Taoism, Buddhism, Divine Right, even (possibly but very ironically) pascifism have been used to justify the worst sorts of excesses. If you're only going to throw rocks at religion, you ARE just engaged in religion bashing... Which I might point out, is merely another example of the problem with human political systems, in which a power base has to find a scapegoat in order to "elevate" itself. I've watched the rise in vitriol from self-identified humanists and athiests in recent years rather sadly. It's part of the human nature to elevate by tearing down, instead of cooperating. Altruism genes only account for parts of human behavior. Competition is still a much stronger factor. Religion isn't the source of all of Humanities problems. Humanity is. Religion isn't going to solve them. Neither is Humanism.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-18-2006, 05:01 PM | #42 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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What is Humanism? Quick definitions (humanism) noun: the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural noun: the cultural movement of the Renaissance; based on classical studies noun: the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare Actually, when I look at this definition I find myself thinking that Humanism could indeed help sove some ugly social problems extant in our world. People's duty is to promote human welfare, is it not? I think so. I think I might be a Humanist; I'll have to look furthur into the definitions of Humanism & think more about it. Oh - and you quoted my answer before I went back & revised it a little, so here it is with my new revisions: Thanks for this excellent, awesome post, Blackheart! I agree with you very much, about the Hitler was no more a christian than is george Bush - but look, they both use religion to furthur their ends and advance their agenda. They both claim(ed) Christianity. Bush uses God all the time, just like Hitler did. Awesome post! Now I really, really must log off. Must - log - off... such an addicting conversation!!
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 05:02 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 05:04 PM | #43 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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But seriously, while it's possible, I suppose, to say that America is waging war against Islam with Christianity (but I think it's very much a stretch; where does Bush say God told him to kill all the infidel Moslems?), one certainly can't say that the West as a whole is. The West as a whole is too busy ignoring Christianity to fight anything with it.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 05:08 PM | #44 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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The thing about the Pope and stuff I need to research more before I can really get into it properly. It is there, though. The connexion is there. The proof will be in the pudding; I need to do more thorough research to pursue this line of reasoning. Will get back to it later.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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04-18-2006, 05:09 PM | #45 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Good call. I don't think Hitler claims much of anything for the past 61 years (exactly, a week from Sunday). Shall we celebrate Hitler Death Day?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 05:12 PM | #46 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 05:30 PM | #47 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, I think I agree with Lotesse now! - I agree that Hitler claimed Christianity (but I would modify it with "at least some of the time" based on Gwai's post with Hitler's anti-Christian quotes).
Well, the end of the world will be interesting, to see the answers to many questions - only God knows who "is" a Christian or not - Jesus Himself said that many would call Him "Lord", but He wouldn't even know them. I think Gwai's point ("where does Bush say God told him to kill all the infidel Moslems?") is a good one, and one I've been trying to emphasize - I think we need to look at the tenets of the respective belief systems and see if they're being followed or not. A person can call themselves whatever they want, but the proof is in their actions and if they line up with the tenets of their belief.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-18-2006 at 05:31 PM. |
04-18-2006, 05:41 PM | #48 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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*Disclaimer making certain no one thinks the HAL is defending Bush*
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 05:50 PM | #49 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-18-2006, 05:59 PM | #50 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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[Dubya]Wawl, shuwcks, Aw knaow it's arown' here sumwhay.[/Dubya] But seriously, my point was merely that Lotesse said that Bush (and consequently, the West, cos we all know Western society is all about the US ) was using Christianity to fight Islam. I was saying that I don't of any time when he does actually do a "Christian against Infidel" thing. Though I admit that I don't exactly follow his every word.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 06:21 PM | #51 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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"W" doesn't....some on the MOOT are a bit left of center when it comes to that subject.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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04-18-2006, 06:22 PM | #52 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I never would have guessed.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 06:41 PM | #53 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-18-2006, 06:52 PM | #54 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 07:11 PM | #55 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Pope Pius XII and Hitler - Connexion between the Church and Adolph Hitler
Hi, I'm back already! I'm obsessing on this topic; couldn't stay away. Got on the computer at my boyfriend's office & went right to work researching the Hitler-Vatican connexion, in response to Gwaimir. While research hunting, I came upon this riveting article written by a man named John Cornwall who has published a book called Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pope Pius XII - anyway, it is a fascinating read, but the article is huge so I'll post the link to it and just pull out a chunk right here to illustrate my point with. This guy is extremely well-researched. And the article (book excerpt?)is a very interesting read; I really recommend it.
~~~~~~~~ After Hitler came to power in January 1933, he made the concordat negotiations with Pacelli a priority. The negotiations proceeded over six months with constant shuttle diplomacy between the Vatican and Berlin. Hitler spent more time on this treaty than on any other item of foreign diplomacy during his dictatorship. The Reich Concordat granted Pacelli the right to impose the new Code of Canon Law on Catholics in Germany and promised a number of measures favorable to Catholic education, including new schools. In exchange, Pacelli collaborated in the withdrawal of Catholics from political and social activity. The negotiations were conducted in secret by Pacelli, Kaas, and Hitler's deputy chancellor, Franz von Papen, over the heads of German bishops and the faithful. The Catholic Church in Germany had no say in setting the conditions. In the end, Hitler insisted that his signature on the concordat would depend on the Center Party's voting for the Enabling Act, the legislation that was to give him dictatorial powers. It was Kaas, chairman of the party but completely in thrall to Pacelli, who bullied the delegates into acceptance. Next, Hitler insisted on the "voluntary" disbanding of the Center Party, the last truly parliamentary force in Germany. Again, Pacelli was the prime mover in this tragic Catholic surrender. The fact that the party voluntarily disbanded itself, rather than go down fighting, had a profound psychological effect, depriving Germany of the last democratic focus of potential noncompliance and resistance: In the political vacuum created by its surrender, Catholics in the millions joined the Nazi Party, believing that it had the support of the Pope. The German bishops capitulated to Pacelli's policy of centralization, and German Catholic democrats found themselves politically leaderless. After the Reich Concordat was signed, Pacelli declared it an unparalleled triumph for the Holy See. In an article in L 'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican-controlled newspaper, he announced that the treaty, indicated the total recognition and acceptance of the church's law by the German state. But Hitler was the true victor and the Jews were the concordat's first victims. On July 14, 1933, after the initialing of the treaty, the Cabinet minutes record Hitler as saying that the concordat had created an atmosphere of confidence that would be "especially significant in the struggle against international Jewry." He was claiming that the Catholic Church had publicly given its blessing, at home and abroad, to the policies of National Socialism, including its anti-Semitic stand. At the same time, under the terms of the concordat, Catholic criticism of acts deemed political by the Nazis, could now be regarded as "foreign interference." The great German Catholic Church, at the insistence of Rome, fell silent. In the future all complaints against the Nazis would be channeled through Pacelli. There were some notable exceptions, for example the sermons preached in 1933 by Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber, the Archbishop of Munich, in which he denounced the Nazis for their rejection of the Old Testament as a Jewish text. The concordat immediately drew the German church into complicity with the Nazis. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anyway, that chunk was pulled out of the middle of the book excerpt. Here is the direct link to it so you guys can read the whole thing. It proves that the Catholic Church and Hitler were very much working together, and that the church "had his back," so to speak, and sanctioned his agenda. Sad, but true. http://www.reformation.org/hitler_pope.html
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04-18-2006, 07:18 PM | #56 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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04-18-2006, 07:33 PM | #57 |
of the House of Fëanor
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And also, allow me to reiterate what I keep saying in one way or the other, what I meant to get across from the beginning in Muslims thread, and that is this: Christianity is utilised by Bush, no? It was utilised by Hitler, too. The Church in Hitler's day did not denounce Hitler but in fact supported him; American Christians in the US today do not denounce Bush and his Christian-themed "war on terror" which is really a war to justify getting oil and political power. If he wanted to get bin Laden, he definitely could have, by now, don't you think? It's easier to keep the threat alive, that way he can justify his righteous war's continuance. NOW - Islam is thwe religion that is utilised by Osama bin Laden! And Mecca DOES denounce the actions of the terrorists, suicide bombers and radical offshoots who spread death and terror in the name of Allah. There are crazies within both Islam and Christianity, who spout things like Kill the Infidel and (from the Christian right & Bush) kill the crazy muslim arabs. The Christian right is more sophisticated with the wording, so as not to blatantly be shown to be what their political & religious message actually is, (in ref. to the wars & etc.)but the message is the same, nonetheless, and it is drummed & pounded into the ears and minds of every American, every day, through the media. Righteous hatred from christians as well as muslims. Intolerance and lies and hypocrisy and justification for mass murder from christians as well as muslims, and both sides in the name of God/Allah. It is the same thing, don't you see? It is the same exact concept.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 07:38 PM. |
04-18-2006, 07:35 PM | #58 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The only instance I've seen of Hitler supporting his atrocities with a verse in the New Testament is when he mentions the verse about Jesus chasing the Jewish moneychangers and sellers of sacrificial animals out of the temple. Hitler apparently takes that verse and bases his policy of killing Jews on it. However, Hitler completely ignores the many instances of Jesus loving other Jews (and even doing the OPPOSITE of killing to one Jew - he raised Lazarus from the dead!) so I hardly think his claim is valid.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-18-2006, 07:37 PM | #59 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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This fellow doesn't seem to be an overly reliable source. According to wikipedia:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope General Middle Earth discussion that isn't confined to one particular book. Note also this related book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myt...from_the_Nazis I trust the Rabbi more.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 07:38 PM | #60 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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Here's a quotation from the Holocaust Museum that should be heeded. I know I've already posted this twice, but I don't think I've heard anyone respond to it, except a little bit brownjenkins. Quote:
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The Holocaust Museum resources show that there was tension between Hitler and maintream German churches, and that the Nazi Party embraced clearly anti-Christian policies. This article's quotation from Wikipedia strongly indicates Hitler was not a Christian, and states that Christianity's being on the decline in Germany helped to strengthen the Nazis. Quote:
Here's an article that takes quotations from several history books and analyzes Hitler's "Christianity." It comes to the conclusion that he was not a Christian: http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/hitler.html Here are some quotations the article cites from Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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