11-06-2009, 10:44 AM | #41 | ||||
Faithful Gardener
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In the case of the Pevensies, Aslan had given them a charge: He had another name in our world, and the Pevensies were to discover that name and grow ever closer to Aslan thus (we hear him say this to Edmund and Lucy in VDT, and I'm sure that it is similar to what he told Peter and Susan in PC). Susan didn't live up to that. And the thing is that they wanted to grow close to Aslan. In VDT, Lucy says, "It isn't Narnia, you know. It's YOU." when talking about what they would miss the most from not coming back to Narnia. But it's the same thing for believers in our world. Once they are saved, they are charged with living a godly lifestyle (for the glory of God) for the rest of their life. I don't think that includes hoping for death, although it does entail a desire to be united with Christ and continually anticipate His return. Quote:
P.S. Yes, "Arsenic and Old Lace" is so funny! It makes me cringe watching it, but it's worth it every time.
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In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
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11-06-2009, 12:22 PM | #42 | |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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The apostle Paul says in one of his letters that he would have liked to go to stay with Christ, because that is so much better - but staying in this life is more useful for those churches and people he then can help.
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11-06-2009, 03:15 PM | #43 |
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What I like best about these threads is that I grow a whole lot from discussing all this. I know I wrote like, some kind of book up there, and it's often really hard to read super long posts (even those that are broken up by quotes), but for the writer, it's a really good process to go through.
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In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
11-06-2009, 07:00 PM | #44 |
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This is kind of off topic, but it ties in in an analytic way.
Instances of Aslan the seven books and which children saw him: TMN: Creating Narnia - Digory and Polly Protecting Narnia - Digory and Polly Blessing Narnia -Digory and Polly LWW: Meeting - Susan, Lucy, Edmund, Peter Killing and resurrection - Susan and Lucy Reviving the stones - Susan and Lucy Defeating White Witch - Susan, Lucy, Edmund (delirium, does this count?), Peter Coronation - Susan, Lucy, Edmund, Peter HHB: Journey - Shasta/Aravis Reprimanding Rabadash - Edmund, Lucy PC: Lucy's sighting - Lucy Leading them across the Rush - Lucy, Edmund, Peter, Susan Waking the trees - Susan, Lucy Liberating Narnia's villages and towns - Susan, Lucy Caspian's Coronation - Susan, Lucy, Edmund, Peter, VDT: Un-dragoning - Eustace Albatross - Lucy Aslan's Country - Lucy, Edmund, Eustace SC: Aslan's Country - Jill, Eustace Dream - Jill Aslan's Country - Jill, Eustace LB: New Narnia - Lucy, Edmund, Peter, Jill, Eustace, Digory, Polly I was thinking: Aslan must be so amazing in person. We as readers love him mainly because the characters in the book love him and have faith in him. But why do they love him? They only see him really a few times. Not often at all from our perspective. From LWW to HHB is probably fifteen or twenty years! After thinking some more about it, Lucy definitely sees him the most (which is why, in VDT, Edmund tells Eustace that Lucy sees him the most... I get it better now!). So it makes sense that her faith is great. But Susan is like, second or third (with Edmund, probably). Why is her faith not as great as Lucy's? Perhaps did she never have what might be called a "conversion experience"? And Digory and Polly have probably the lowest experiences, but they believe still when they're very very old! However, they did see him do great things. Any thoughts? In relation to Susan's falling away and Val's lament?
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In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
11-11-2009, 06:14 AM | #45 |
Elf Lord
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I suppose you could compare it to going to church. I went to Sunday School every week, and even won prizes- but it didn't take. I have friends who are Christians who were converted suddenly as adults.
Susan seems the type who is very down to earth- not necessarily a compliment in Narnia-it's a trait shared with witches and dwarfs. So, maybe just personality types- which leaves me to believe that "faith" is a very poor method of deciding on who gets saved- cheers to Lewis for his nod to inclusivism.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-11-2009, 06:22 AM | #46 |
Elf Lord
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And even more off-topic, the Narnia timeline seems to feel a little off to me. While TLTWTW conveys the feel of England during the Blitz, VDT and SC seem to be much more post-war.
I especially note Mr. Pevensie taking Susan with him to America in Summer 1942- smack in the middle of the worst of the Battle of the Atlantic, with the U-boat wolf-packs ravaging all shipping between England and the US. Hardly time to take your 14-year-old daughter for a holiday cruise!
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-11-2009 at 06:23 AM. |
11-11-2009, 11:04 AM | #47 |
Elf Lord
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I submit to all those that think the deaths of Pevensies morbid,
LIFE IS A 100% FATAL PROSPECT. You are either prepared for the inevitable or you are not. No one, not even God, got off this planet without the experience (since we are not able to establish that the taking up to heaven of Enoch or Elijah or the Blessed Mother did not involve the process however they were translated). Most people in most places at most times have lived well less than 40 years and still do. This is the consequence of life on a dangerous planet such as ours. That CS Lewis wrote small what is writ so large that we choose not see it, well, that is a boon, not a defect; a feature, not a bug. Know well that you too shall face the inevitable. How one chooses to live one's life in the face of that knowledge has repercussions. If Susan's proclivity towards nylons and stockings mean anything at all, it has less to do with sexuality than it does with being blinded by the materialist assumption and faith that this world is all there is. To choose to major on the minors is a loss all too evident in these times. You have at least the advantage of having to consider whether such a choice is the sole choice for life direction. There is a major difference here between Lewis and Pullman to which you are to respond. Both authors intend that. Keep on thinking!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 11-11-2009 at 11:05 AM. Reason: speelin'...again |
11-11-2009, 04:55 PM | #48 | ||
Faithful Gardener
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That's the whole point of being saved: that you have faith. That you can trust in things you have not seen.
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In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
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11-12-2009, 03:11 AM | #49 | ||
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-12-2009, 04:44 AM | #50 | |
Elf Lord
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Lament for? No, paean to Susan Pevensie:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-12-2009 at 04:49 AM. |
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11-12-2009, 03:01 PM | #51 |
Elf Lord
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Aww, GM, I was hoping for something more MATERIAListic, like
ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST! ...Another one bites the dust Another one bites the dust And another one gone And another one gone Another one bites the dust Hey, I'm gonna get you too Another one bites the dust Shoot it Hey Alright http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/q/q..._the_dust.html
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-12-2009, 04:11 PM | #52 | ||
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In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
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11-13-2009, 02:49 PM | #53 |
Sapling
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susan
i know i always hated that part. but that's life, and c.s. lewis wrote narnia from a Christian perspective. things like that do happen. when you write, you don't always have to have a happy ending!
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11-15-2009, 09:12 AM | #54 | ||
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-15-2009, 09:43 AM | #55 | |
Elf Lord
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In those far-off days, I too divided people into two groups, but not the saved and the fallen, at least in the Christian sense. It was more the Acceptors and the Questioners, the Satisfied and the Seekers, of whatever faith or belief system; there were religious and non-religious people in each. Being one of the old-timers here, I'm sure you remember those ancient days before the Tolkien boom; before the movies or RPGs; before Fantasy took up whole sections in the bookstore- "Part 12 in the never-ending Quest in which Giliard the Searcher and his trusty companions Krrgronk the Dwarf, Swish the Elf and Grandgulf the Wizard confront the Dark Lord and His Evil Black Raiders!!!" In those days, full scorn was poured on anyone found doing anything as weird or 'fruity' as reading "Fairy Tales." That's why I particularly dislike what Lewis has done in "The Last Battle"- falsely equating Imagination and Christianity. While there are materialists/sensualists out there totally involved in the things of this world, there are also plenty of Christians deaf to the trumpets of Faerie- and plenty of non-Christians ready to folow the melody into the Hollow Hills.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-15-2009, 09:45 AM | #56 |
Elf Lord
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That's the point- everybody dies, and that is the happy ending
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-15-2009, 09:52 AM | #57 |
Elf Lord
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And don't get me started on Dwarfs- I have some rather idiosyncratic views on some of the symbolism in "The Last Battle".
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-15-2009, 07:31 PM | #58 |
Elf Lord
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Ahh, GrayMouser, the mortality rate is 100%. Whether or not one is happy in the life to come is THE issue. And the way one lives one's life is part and parcel of that ability, witness the dwarves (dwarfs).
But about them you were going to say? I do remember when one had no recourse after Lewis or Tolkien but the Sword of Shannara. THAT dates me, doesn't it? There was science fiction, of course. Heinlein, Asimov. Also, one could turn to George MacDonald. Then, mystery novels by Dorothy L. Sayers. Dante... Ah, so much to read, so little time. Now, there's Harry Potter, too!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 11-15-2009 at 07:36 PM. Reason: speelin' aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain. |
11-18-2009, 06:26 AM | #59 | |||
Elf Lord
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And on the S&S front Conan was reprinted in 1966/67 and my own dear Gray Mouser and Fafhrd in 1970.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-18-2009 at 06:28 AM. |
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11-18-2009, 11:55 AM | #60 | |
Elf Lord
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As for the Dwarfs ( I'll use t Lewis's spelling to show I'm only talking about them in the Narnia series), while in the other books they are prone to skepticism or selfishly concerned only with their fellow Dwarfs in "The Last Battle" they not only stand in for all those self-blinded by philosophical materialism (like Uncle Andrew in TMN) they also specifically symbolize the British working class/Trade Unions/Labour Party movement.
Yes, yes, I know- - but think about it for a minute. "The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs" represents the Left's commitment to the workers only, and their rejection of the legitimacy of other classes or sectors of society. The Dwarfs, having stood solidly against the invading Calormenes (Nazis), then refuse to return to their allotted place in the hierarchy of Aslan/Tirian/Narnia (God, King, and Country) and instead are seduced by a philosphy of secular materialism (socialism/Marxism). My God, they even voted out Winnie- how's that for betrayal?- at least to a conservative like Lewis. You could even argue that their targeting of the Horses in the battle around the Stable is meant to show Labour's hostility to the aristocracy, noted for their love of horses and their self-identity as "those born spurred and destined to mount". One of the complaints of the socialists against Christianity was that it instilled passivism in the poor, as in Moses the Raven's description's of the wonders of Sugar Candy Mountain in "Animlal Farm" or the old Joe Hill song "The Preacher and the Slave" : (to the tune of "The Sweet Bye and Bye") Quote:
This of course parallels Tolkien's attack on the post-WWII Labour government in "The Scouring of the Shire" and leads us to the conclusion that these scholarly dons spend an inordinate amount of time concerned with what they were getting for dinner. Or as Lapham Lewis put it, "the conviction that the modern world is entering into a state of degeneracy rests largely on the fact that Oxford dons once had servants but now have to do their own washing-up."
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-18-2009 at 12:02 PM. |
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