A Question on Balrogs

[Radagast]

It could have gotten all the hair from the Dwarves' beard and sewn them into wings! Yeah! *shuts up when he starts getting odd looks*
It can happen!
*runs*

[Agburanar]

lets sort this out for good this time!!!!!!!

BALROGS AND WINGS:

FOR AGAINST
If it had wings it wouldn't As a Maiar it could have
have fallen down would it? changed shape to have
wings, but not been able
to fly.

The book says it had fiery wings, But not actually wings.

IT'S ALL A MATTER OF PERSONAL CHOICE- AND AT THE END OF THE DAY IT DOESN'T MATTER! BALROGS ARE REALLY SCARY, FIERY CREATURES, THEY DON'T NEED WINGS BUT YOU CAN GIVE THEM WINGS IF YOU LIKE!!!!!!!

[Comic Book Guy]

lets sort this out for good this time!!!!!!!

Seeing as this is a inconclusive topic, someone will always bring it up someday.

[Arathorn]

Don't you just love the Professor? He left enough loose and not so loose ends to keep people mooting.

[Elf Girl]

Okay. This thread is months old, but I want to throw my stone on the non-winged side of the scale. If I started another thread, it would be closed. So... I wrote a paper that was supposed to defend one side of an issue for English. Here it is. Bear with me, I had to do a little explaining for the nitwits.

For fifty years, Tolkien lovers everywhere have debated the infamous question: do Balrogs have wings?
J.R.R. Tolkien created the Balrog, an evil and fiery demon from the depths of the world, for his masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings. The Balrog is described as being "like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...in its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire, in its left it held whip of many thongs."
But do Balrogs have wings? Tolkien says that "The shadow around it reached out like two vast wings", but are the wings real, or merely shadow that looks like wings? It is my belief that the wings are merely figurative. After all, Tolkien tells us that they are "like two vast wings". This is a simile that that the writer used to create an image of towering shadow in our mind. Farther on, the Balrog's "wings were spread from wall to wall". However, Tolkien has already established that the wings are not literal; only wing-like shapes.
Therefore, it seems obvious to me that the Balrog, however evil, is utterly wingless in every regard.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think the Balrogs had wings, I almost sure they had. But I don't think they could fly with them... (agree with Agburanar)

[cassiopeia]

I agree with Elf Girl's post. After rereading the part on the Balrog, I have to the conclusion that Balrogs don't have wings. They are not real wings, just a description. This debate will probably never end, but its fun debating it!

[bropous]

Have to agree with CBG on this one. this is totally inconclusive, and it is absolutely certain that the Master left this dichotomy in for people to hash over time and again. His meticulous editing process would not have missed this dissonance in such a harmonic masterwork. Folkses will argue from now til doomsday whether Balrogs gots wings. For me, I have always visualized Balrogs pretty much as the one in the film, and think Alan Lee got the viualization right [wasn't he the one who designed this Balrog?].

I see your point, Elf Girl, regarding simile versus objective statement, but Professor Tolkien, again, would not have left that shift in conceptualization remain in the books if he had not wanted to leave the issue intentionally vague.

And, mayhaps, as Gandalf stood and saw one of his childhood playmates gone horribly wrong approaching acroos the bridge at Khazad-Dum, those wihtout Maiar or Elven sight might have been asking themselves, "are those wings there? or what the freaking heck ARE they?" I imagine had one polled the remaining fellowship in Lothlorien, you would have gotten a result similar to this:

Does Balrogs gots wings?

FOR: 2
AGAINST: 2
DON'T KNOW: 3
NOT VOTING: 1

[Starr Polish]

Well, what cast the wing-shaped shadows, if there were no wings?

Hah! HAH!

[Khamûl]

I can see both sides of this issue, buy I say that Balrogs had wings for two reasons:

1. He spread his wings from one wall to the other. Period.
2. They would look so much cooler if they had wings.

You never know. I might change sides after I read over it and think about it a little.

[Radagast The Brown]

in second thought:
maybe it had one wing and one hand or two wings and two hands? because he lash with his whip... or he did this with his wings?

[Garina]

I'm not sure whether this is good evidence or not, but my SFX magazine has an advert for Games Workshop collaborating with New Line Cinema, and the picture of the Balrog definitely has wings. I will see if I can scan the picture at a later date (when my ******* scanner is working!)

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Well, what cast the wing-shaped shadows, if there were no wings?

The Balrog itself. It was already surrounded by shadow, there can be no debate about that, so, being malicous, it said to itself, "Ha! I will pretend I have wings and people will debate it for all eternity! Mwahahahhahaha!" And forced the shadow around it out to look like wings.

[BeardofPants]

I'm with wings.

Firstly, they don't have to be functional wings. To follow this, you could then postulate that the wings were of a shadowy/phantom element.

Secondly, wings are cool.

Thirdly, they were spread from wall to wall. If they were non-functional shadow wings (well, semi-functional, since they could be used like a cat makes it's fur rise... as a scare tat tic.) then they still exist, and were spread, but they were not REAL, solid wings. Wings of fire and shadow, if you will.

That is all.

[Tar-Elendil]

Balrogs have wings. I dont care what anybody says, but balrogs have wings.

[BeardofPants]

What is was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it.

The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them... and the firey shadow halted

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell foward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.

I DO think it has wings. However, they are wings of shadow, that wreaths around the man-shape within. Also, consider that the flame of Arnor dichotomizes with that of the flame of Udun, and of the shadow. Polar opposites, if you will.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Since the professor left us with this mystery, I say that if you think that Balrogs have wings, then they have wings. If you think they don't have wings, then they don't have wings. Btw, Do Elves have pointy ears?

Oh, and even though this is an old thread, I think it belongs in the ME forum. Moving.

[Earniel]

To wing or not to wing... Well I don't care that much for it, but it's a nice perpetual debate. I'm not sure which of these two options it's going to be, but it takes but a little to adjust my mental image of the balrog. Although I do favour wings for the nice and shallow reason that's the balrog is more impressive that way, shadow wings are okay too. But if he had real wings, I sincerely doubt them being functional. If the wings were to carry a balrog they must have been enormous, bigger than enormous really, gigantic's better. Or even beyond that. Anyway, you get my point, I hope.

[Agburanar]

Agree with Agburanar- Originally quoted by Radagast the Brown I believe

I never said the Balrog has wings, only it may do. I prefer the originality of a non-winged version but agree there is an arguement for wings.

[Andúril]

Having just finished lunch, I feel that I am morally obliged to insert mine 2 cents into this fiasco, because if I don't, the world will end, and I won't be able to enslave anyone.

[frowns]*Scratches head*[/frowns]

Now then, where was I? Alright, let's take a few statements from a book called LotR...

The Good Book
...it was like a great shadow...

Like a great shadow? In other words, not a shadow, but sufficiently dark enough to warrant a description that compares the darkness to a shadow. I would say that Tolkien's use of "shadow" and "darkness" was interchangeable.

More from the Good Book
His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

So.....the shadow - which is not actually a shadow (of an object), but darkness - reached out. The darkness, essentially, grew.

The darkness assumed a shape. The shape of wings. We know that when the thought of a demonic creature comes to mind, we sometimes (if not most of the time) picture it with some type of wings. Whether the wings can be used is of no consequence - it is merely an addition to the rest of the image to make it look more "demonic". Now, the balrog, I'm sure many would agree, is a prime candidate for "demonic creature", as parallels are drawn between the type of being: spirit of fire, powerful and terrifying, and the concept of demons from hell, eternal fire, terror, etc. I would say that Tolkien wished to draw from the reader's conceptual image of a demonic creature, to reinforce the interpretation of this creature in the way that Tolkien wanted people to see it; to equate thoughts of "hell" with this being of fiction.

Therefore, of all shapes to intentionally compare the shape of the transformed darkness/shadow, wings would be the most suitable choice.

Also, since the Good Book says "...the shadow about it...", we should not ignore that the shadow/darkness surrounded or encompassed the "dark form, of man-shape". From this, it would be silly to assume that, if the balrog had wings, they were folded behind it, and when the wings were unfolded, the shadow of (or darkness of) the wings was extended. Silly, because if the wings were folded up behind it, obviously the shadow/darkness of the wings would too be behind it, not encompassing it.

Additionally, we know that the balrog was a man-shape, surrounded by shadow, and has the ability to manipulate fire and shadow. Let's go back to the sentence "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." The balrog was manipulating shadow, to induce fear. If a man-shape was detected - amidst the shadow - why weren't wings detected? Well, they might have been folded to such an extent that they were not at all visible behind the frame of the balrog, or perhaps the shadow made so much of an impact on the physical boundary of the balrog that anything behind the frame would be indeterminable/indestinguishable from shadow.

But then, if the man-shape (physical) was discernable against shadow, physical wings would also have been discernable, because they would have been separate from the shadow. We know this because, if we again assume there were wings, without the "wings" unfolded there was still shadow surrounding the man-shape. This would imply that if the wings became unfolded, there would be an additional shadow (of the wings).

And even more from thine Good Book:
The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;

Okay, first things first: the darkness grew. Once again, the shadow, surrounding the man-shape, grew. The shape of the shadow has already been described as that of wings. Therefore, when we read:

Yes, I know, even more from the Good Book:
...and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;

...we are told that the shadow has grown to such an extent that it has reached the walls. The mention of "wings" refers (metaphorically) only to the shape of the shadow, not to actual wings. No actual wings are ever mentioned.

It reminds me of Junior School english classes, were we learnt about similes and metaphors. Examples:

[Simile] The cloud looked like an anvil.
[Metaphor] The anvil exploded in a thunder shower.

[Simile] ... the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.
[Metaphor] ... its wings were spread from wall to wall.

That is all that I have to say about that. Never forget, however, that I.EAT.FLESH.

Huzzah!