Space Shuttle Blew Up

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Arathorn
The difference between the Space shuttle tragedies, in hindsight, with the early seafaring days mishaps is the media. Back then, news comes to people in trickles. Now, one can find out about it at almost the same time as everyone else does so it becomes larger than life.

The other difference is that the majority of times in the early seafaring days - the families nor anyone else ever knew what happened to the ships or sailors.

Now today - if it happens in the US or anywhere else - people can talk about it with people who live 6000 miles away - like we're doing right now on entmoot. The Internet has made the world a much smaller place - much smaller than planes or telephone in my opinion. I guess I'm still amazed at the internet and how it has enabled people to talk from all over the world like this (even if we don't always agree).

It's also amazing that we're only celebrating the 100th anniversary of the first air flight - the Wright Brothers.

[Arathorn]

Much better put, JD. I am also in awe of the 'Net. It first arrived in our local shores when I first started teaching back in 1993. It amazes me how I was able to live without it. It is preciouss to me.

[Admiral Ackbar]

No, I repeat--the space program is not a total waste. What concerns me is the amount spent versus the benefits. Shouldn't we spend such time and money/resources on fixing what we already have before seeking something else? I, personally, am against the war on Iraq (unless of course weapons of MD are found etc...) and I am against blood-sucking SUVs and ridiculously overpriced brand names, just for the record.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Admiral Ackbar
No, I repeat--the space program is not a total waste. What concerns me is the amount spent versus the benefits. Shouldn't we spend such time and money/resources on fixing what we already have before seeking something else?

Well then we'd never accomplish anything - because there will always be problems which need to be fixed. Science and space exploration will allow a greater understanding of the earth, environment - ect. Things that DO affect us today. They also do experiments regarding cancer cells in space, as well as other diseases.


Right now billions are being spent down the road from me at the Princeton Plasma Physics Labortory (which is actually in Plainsboro), but we won't see any direct benefits for roughly 40 years it's estimated. Direct benefits being a commercially viable Fussion energy reactor which will supply non-polluting energy to houses and businesses.

Bush to fund fusion energy machine
PRINCETON, New Jersey (CNN) -- The Bush administration will join an international consortium that plans to build a $5 billion fusion machine to produce power, the U.S. energy secretary announced Thursday.

The United States will be responsible for about 10 percent of the cost of the project, expected to begin construction in 2006. The other partners are China, Japan, the European Union, Russia and Canada.

The first machine to be built will be an experimental version. More research and development will be needed before scientists learn how to harness the fusion reactions.

Currently, nuclear reactors make energy through fission, harnessing the energy of splitting atomic parts to make electricity. They do not emit greenhouse gases like oil or coal power plants, but produce highly radioactive wastes.

In contrast, fusion reactors would generate power by fusing certain kinds of atoms to make heavier ones. They would produce little or no dangerous byproducts, but fusion technology will not be economically viable as a power source for decades or longer, critics contend.
Coming together

Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham made the announcement at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, one of the premiere fusion laboratories in the Unites States.

The Princeton lab is a Department of Energy unit that researches fusion but does not have the capability to produce energy on a large scale for commercial use.

The United States earlier was a partner in the conceptual designs for a fusion reactor, but pulled out of the project because of the expense.

The multinational group hopes to choose a site by mid-2003, selecting from locations in Japan, France, Spain and Canada.

[eowyngirl14]

Today is a very sad day indeed. Just the other day in SS class, we were talkign about how rarely shuttle launchings make the front page news. I said that I wished they still would.

Now I am very soory I said that. This did make the front page news, but it is a teriible tragedy...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Today is a very sad day indeed. Just the other day in SS class, we were talkign about how rarely shuttle launchings make the front page news. I said that I wished they still would.

Now I am very soory I said that. This did make the front page news, but it is a teriible tragedy...

The Columbia take off made the Star Ledger front page here in New Jersey when it took off. The headline is sort of ironic - "History Making Flight". Obviously they were talking about the first Israeli astronaut and not planning on the tragedy that has made the mission even more historic, Also - New Jersey had several experiments on board that flight - so it was bigger news here I think.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Admiral Ackbar
No, I repeat--the space program is not a total waste. What concerns me is the amount spent versus the benefits. Shouldn't we spend such time and money/resources on fixing what we already have before seeking something else?

We cant hold our breathes in the hopes of achieving a utopia when the exploration of space could be THE most important step our species has ever made. Millions or years ago some hominid decided exploring the open savannahs rather then worrying about the conditions of their trees was an important thing. And the next thing you know here we are today talking to each other all over the world through computers. Its our nature and our destiny to explore and move on in the universe. It really cant be stopped. Its just a matter of realizing we can approach more then one issue at once. not picking one or the other.

...and I am against blood-sucking SUVs and ridiculously overpriced brand names, just for the record.

Im with you 100% on this. I say we have a SUV tax that would go toward the Manned Mars Mission. In this way the SUV could finally find a productive travel use in a way and not be simply a suburban trophy and gas eating monstrosity.

[cassiopeia]

I'm very upset today about this tragedy. I feel very strongly about the space program and am very sad at all such tragedies.
I hope they learn from this disaster, like they learnt from the Apollo 1 and Challenger accidents.
The space program is worth it - research is being done on the ISS which will, hopefully, benefit people in the future. I can't think of anything more exciting that exploring new worlds, and I hope one day we will sent Man to Mars. We should learn from our mistakes, but we must remember that everybody - NASA, the astronauts, thier families - knew the risks involved, and decided it was worth it. It will happen again in the future, but we must move forward and continue.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

this is sooo sad, imagine being so happy that your spouse/son/daughter? is going to come home in 16 minutes, then they're not there. I found out after this math thing at 12:00, and it was horrible

[Artanis]

Didn't have a chance to watch the news yesterday and saw this thread just now. I'm sorry for everyone involved.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Yes, I just found out today, too. I remember Columbia's first flight: it was very significant. The space program had seemed to be in the doldrums after the big Apollo missions, and not everybody was thrilled with this new-fangled shuttle program or sure that it would work.

And then Columbia, like a graceful, magic bird, touched down safely. Everybody was watching that first landing, amazed by it, hoping nothing bad would happen...and it didn't. Wonderful! That really convinced everybody this would work.

And so it comes to this.



Yet it still works. What's so hard to remember is that, this technology is so new, there really isn't any other 100% sure way to tell what are the practical limitations. Of course, we don't want such 100% surety, but we have to keep in mind that computer modeling only goes so far. There can't yet be any guarantees of safety all the time for those involved in the program.

[Khamûl]

I like what Reagan said in 1986 after the Challenger disaster:

On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime the great frontiers were the oceans, and a historian later said, 'He lived by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it.' Well, today we can say of the Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete.

The same can be said about Columbia.

[Ellison]

It seems everyone remembers what they were doing on 9/11... who will remember where they were when the Columbia was ripped apart.

I for one had just woken at my friends house, we lit fireworks in honor of the dead astronauts

[Elven Archer]

when i heard what happened on 9/11 i was at school in chapel and the person who was giving the chapel talk told everyone about it. when Columbia broke apart i was turning on the TV to watch cartoons and i though all the news was about it landing,then i watched it and realized what really happened.

i heard last night they found some body remains,a helmet, and a patch. i haven't heard anymore about it since though.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

i heard about columbia around 12:00 at a stupid math thing

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Im with you 100% on this. I say we have a SUV tax that would go toward the Manned Mars Mission. In this way the SUV could finally find a productive travel use in a way and not be simply a suburban trophy and gas eating monstrosity.

I think the point Admiral Akbar was making is that there are other ways of getting the benefits of basic research such as space exploration. For example, unmanned missions cost less than a tenth as much as manned ones. I for one cannot see the point of sending a human to Mars when you could send ten unmanned probes, to investigate all manner of phenomena, for the same cost.

Of course, the value of pioneering heroism, of the sort that the shuttle crews display, is unquantifiable, and maybe that's why we do it.

cheers

d.

[Elvellon]

The space program is a long-term investment. The modern space program reminds me of the early days when first the Portuguese launched their own sea exploration program in the early XV century (it was an organized program, with a exclusively dedicated naval base at cape Sagres, and a mariners and cartographers school). The main goals were the discovery of new lands and a sea route to India in search of valuable spices. It took most of the century to achieve that last objective, and during that time the program had little or no profit to show but the invaluable knowledge it was being acquired. In the end, persistence opened the World for exploration and, for better and worse, colonization, aiding to create the world we know.

I believe that is the spirit of those that now open the road to the stars. They are just in the beginning, learning how to navigate in a new, vast ocean. It is not to be expected immediate profits, but the nation that resolutely undertakes such road will help change Humanity’s future.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
I think the point Admiral Akbar was making is that there are other ways of getting the benefits of basic research such as space exploration. For example, unmanned missions cost less than a tenth as much as manned ones. I for one cannot see the point of sending a human to Mars when you could send ten unmanned probes, to investigate all manner of phenomena, for the same cost.

The most important point would be the symbolism of it of course. That a human has set foot on Mars. A pretty damn big deal compared to faceless probes. Same idea as putting a man on the moon. That too wasnt absolutely necessary but the image of Neil Armstrong stepping down on lunar soil has been by far the biggest image builder the space program ever had and turned a generation of kids into wanna be astronaughts and kept the best of the best interested in space exploration. Dont get me wrong I think we should have ten probes as well. We should be sendig a probe every few years at least to explore Mars and the gas giants and the rest of the solar system.

Also, I think the argument has been made many times in the past few days since Saturday that it may actually have been the mentallity of hey NASA shouldnt be getting all this money for their silly space things that could have caused them to worry a little bit too much about budget and not have safety be a consideration unincumbered by restrictions on spending. It would be a further irony if this disaster leads to even further cut backs to a program that needs so much more then what its currently getting.

[Finrod Felagund]

Israel's firstastronaut. How great is that for Israel's self esteem and future space participation!

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Elvellon
The space program is a long-term investment. The modern space program reminds me of the early days when first the Portuguese launched their own sea exploration program in the early XV century

Good point; in the paper today someone wrote that the Spaniard Magellan set off on the first circumnavigation of the globe with five ships and over 200 men. Of those, only one ship and about 20 men returned.

I also take IRex's point that scrimping and saving may be found to be the culprit here (tho' cynics might doubt NASA saying "if only we had been given more money..." as an excuse)

Personally, I doubt the cost-benefit ratio of a Mars expedition; it's good for the ratings, and puts Bush in the same camp as Kennedy, but not much else. It's a sad fact that the Shuttle programme is not covered in the media until something goes wrong. Also, I don't see how going to Mars is going to lead to more money for the Shuttle; if anything, it'll divert funds away from it.