05-17-2005, 03:40 PM | #41 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
nah not at all: ( and i mean that) they could well be Mearas or in part from mearas stock: i just didn't think the point sufficiently proved originally and then subsequently it went un-passed and un-pursued and therefore appeared to be taken as read that they therefore WERE Mearas: i just think the argument as panned out is not sufficiently proved one way or the other yet: to say un-equivocially or for mooters to asume they were seems to me to need pulling up and looking at: to be frank i don't really care if they were or not: maybe fear drove them on? maybe they were exceptional horses indeed: but my thought is just this: IF gandalf on shadowfax rode to the hilt like the wind back to the North then they must have been, from what we know of shadowfax and his relation to other horses of his age, superb horses indeed. I personally feel Tolkien just had to try the best he could to get the timelines in some sort of Sync: if shadowfax pushed himself to the limit then they were ALL kings of horses themselves: not merely Mearas but CHIEFTANS of the mearas if they (almost) matched him now: one maybe, possibly, Two: well... ok just about within reason perhaps... ALL nine? well i'm no expert on genetics and stud breeding etc: if it was that easy i'd go into horse-racing (and then later down the road sell my profitable investments to M glazer! ) best BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-17-2005 at 03:43 PM. |
|
05-17-2005, 04:35 PM | #42 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Oh, Butterbeer, for once I agree with your POV!
|
05-17-2005, 04:49 PM | #43 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
sssSSHHHHHH! Hush now .... it'll be the end of debate in our times! .... which bit did you particularly agree with??? |
05-17-2005, 05:27 PM | #44 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
to be frank i don't really care if they were or not: maybe fear drove them on? maybe they were exceptional horses indeed: but my thought is just this: IF gandalf on shadowfax rode to the hilt like the wind back to the North then they must have been, from what we know of shadowfax and his relation to other horses of his age, superb horses indeed." As for the rest: why do you think that ordinary mearas and the Chieftain of the mearas differ in speed that much? And just a thought, what about Asfaloth? Was he a Mearas as well or came from an entirely different line? |
|
05-17-2005, 05:47 PM | #45 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
well Tolkien says Shadowfax is the chieftan and he leaves all other horses for dead ... seems a reasonable premise: this whole idea throughout tolkien about royalty and Lineage: King or Lord xxx was taller it seemed or etc etc ...
as for the elven horse: haven't a clue! |
05-17-2005, 06:01 PM | #46 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
05-17-2005, 06:17 PM | #47 | |||||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Second, while the issues you bring up are important, you also have to realize that Sauron wouldn't have started with a such a small herd either; increase the number of mares and stallions, and all conditions being average, your herd is going to grow rather quickly, not slowly. Third, your what ifs can easily be answered with more what ifs: what if every mare had twins that grw to adulthood? what if the presence of the nazgul was trained into them so that it spurred growth? what if there were black rohirrim and wide lands around nurnen? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Then you missed TD's point. When you said "Good point" and agreed with him a few messages back, the part you quoted from TD's message was this: "Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys." It seems to me that TD is in fact questioning that very notion. And you did say in reply to this: "Good Point!" The fear factor (sorry, couldn't resist) has already been addressed. These horses were specifically bred for the Nazgul. We can speculate on how that might be accomplished, but to me that fact trumps concerns about fear. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||||||||
05-18-2005, 09:51 AM | #48 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Hi, Forkbeard, "diametrically opposed" to me!
Quote:
Anyway, I believe it is wrong to extrapolate ordinary horse population dynamics to the noble mearas, especially to "perverted" Mearas. (as wrong as to extrapolate human population dynamics to Elves). Isn't it better to admit that it is totally unknown to us? I leave out the question about Rohans king's "pecking order" but you have not convinced me at all that the Kings would not want all the Rohan horses to be Mearas, if it were possible. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world" What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain? Quote:
Quote:
1. Even in the drafts of the text describing Gandalf's ride from Rohan to the Shire Tolkien described the nazgul horses as very swift, but not as swift as Shadowfax."…and I name him Grayfax. Not even the Chief of the Nine could go with such tireless speed" The Treason of Isengard, chapter VI). So at least the WK horse was reputed for its speed. I have already posted similar quotes from LOTR. 2.According to Christofer Tolkien, the Hunt for the Ring in UT was written before the Tale of Years has been published. In UT the nazgul took three days, not four, from Isen to Sarn Ford, arriving there at night of 21-22. That was corrected in the Tale of Tears to nazgul reaching SF at evening 22. So Tolkien did think on these dates. 3. The dates given in the Tale of Years allow the nazgul horses to be up to 35 hours behind Shadowfax in the Isen-Sarn Ford race. Gandalf may have crossed the Isen in the evening of 24 and Sarn Ford in the morning of 28 (about 80 hours). Nazgul may have crossed the Isen in the morning of 18 and it is specified that the nazgul came to Sarn Ford by evening 22 (about 115 hours). So it corresponds well with the notion of nazgul horses being very swift, but not so swift as Shadowfax. Quote:
Quote:
But this supposition is well founded, IMO. Remember Annatar in Eregion. He could hardly pass for a good maia, faithful pupil of Aule, if geese screemed at him and horses and dogs blindly ran away, could he? Re:"perverted". You may call circus lions whatever you like, I only wanted to say that the Mouth's horse looked /how do I word it now?/ MORE PERVERTED than the nazgul steeds. Regards, Gordis Last edited by Gordis : 05-18-2005 at 09:57 AM. |
||||||||
05-18-2005, 11:25 AM | #49 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
||
05-18-2005, 01:04 PM | #50 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Thanks, TD, for clarification.
And YES, you are right about elven horses. I have found the quote: Quote:
|
|
05-18-2005, 04:43 PM | #51 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
You suggest Gordis that they were Naughty? (just some light relief from the unexpected inquisition-style grilling!) Knifemoustache i name you ... Interesting posts Forkbeard - you do ...er.. seem a little anti-anything-Gordis says? (course she's wrong about most things regarding theses horsies! ) |
|
05-19-2005, 12:37 PM | #52 | |||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Pt I
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
b) you've provided no evidence that the king wanted to have all the Rohirrim on mearas What we do know, and we know only this, is that Eorl was the first to ride a mearas and that ever afterward a mearas bore the king or his sons, period. Tradition and prestige are important in a warrior society like the Rohirrim, and that is very obvious in this case, I think, that only the descendants of Eorl ride a horse descended from Eorl's. Quote:
In conclusion, regardless of how finished or unfinished the "program" was, it makes no difference whatsoever to how many horses Sauron had bred to carry his Nazgul. Given the great preparations for war over more than a half century, it is likely that Sauron thought of more than one horse to carry his most important and most trusted servants. Quote:
Besides, Tolkien tells us that the horses carrying the Nazgul were specifically BRED, not trained, BRED to carry a Nazgul. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I will point out another aspect of distance and speed. According to UT, Gandalf traveled 800 miles from Thranduil to Frodo in 15 days. But in the tale of years it takes him 10 days to go from Bree to Isengard, less than 600 miles. In both cases he is in haste. Again, I'd say that he didn't consider the full implications. There is also the fact that somehow the Nazgul are negatively affected by water and are stopped by water, yet at the same time cross the fords of two large rivers without pause or mishap. CT notes that even Tolkien felt this hard to sustain. But there it is, in the books staring us in the face. Quote:
|
|||||||||||||
05-19-2005, 12:39 PM | #53 | |||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Pt II
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a long term, age long program of Sauron's to provide horses for his troops, particularly his generals." |
|||||
05-19-2005, 12:41 PM | #54 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
And it could be turned around....Gordis seems a little anti-anything-Forkbeard says.. I know she's not though Last edited by Forkbeard : 05-20-2005 at 01:09 AM. |
|
05-19-2005, 06:44 PM | #55 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
well i must say Forkbeard you argue your case both intelligently and with incisiveness.
I think Gordis has, to a degree, been drawn-in by the cut and thrust of this debate beyond perhaps her original position? (which i understood to be a loose supposition in origin) but either way respect to the pair of you for the duel! : i do suspect in general Gordis is now attempting to defend a pretty shaky position, inspired more than anything by the quality - and thereby, the challenge - of the debate than her original starting point! Partly though this is why i have a lot of respect for Gordis: a) the posing and genuine desire to examine new ideas and hypothetical questions b) the ability and intelligence and knowledge to debate them c) But mainly (and personally) gordis's excellent sense of humour and skill at decriptive writing! So: (couldn't resist ) what do you think on the IF (hypothetical) question of the WK and if he mastered the One ring debate? Best to both protagonists, BB |
05-20-2005, 10:44 AM | #56 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 796
|
I am new to this thread and actually to this forum so dont kill me outright.
I dont understand why the horsies cannot be mearas? I think Gordi proved it allright. And I think Forkbeard could use more sense of humour... |
05-20-2005, 12:41 PM | #57 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: trondheim, norway
Posts: 1,388
|
Yeah, I neither see way the horses can't be mearas.. I think Gordis proved it with that speedcalculation.
__________________
Don't Panic! |
05-20-2005, 03:00 PM | #58 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Word!! Been following this debate for a couple days and now it seems the shelling has stopped, I gotta echo the ops of you two above and say same: why CAN'T the Nazgul's horses be mearas? What's the big deal?
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
05-20-2005, 06:47 PM | #59 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Yes, Lotesse is right, now the shelling has stopped , and I want to explain why.
I was starting to write a fourth or fifth reply to Mr. Forkbeard, but then I had to stop as I felt incredibly bored and what is worse felt that any sense of humor I might have possessed was leaving me . So I decided to stop it. Thanks, Butterbeer, for your compliments. I thank Crazy Squirrel, Pitt and Lotesse for support (Valar know I needed it here!) Quote:
As in "the cut and thrust of this debate" my POV has become somewhat obscured I decided to summarize it again below: My POV 1. Nazgul horses are very swift a.Tolkien has not made a blunder in the Tale of Years. Both the Nazgul and Shadowfax took roughly 4 days (min 74, max 118 hours for Gandalf; min 92 max 118 for the nazgul) from the Fords of Isen to the Sarn Ford. b. In another 2-days race Bree - Weathertop the same participants have shown similar results. And in this case the results could be assessed with more precision Quote:
Gandalf left Bree at first light Both reached Weathertop on the evening of the second day the nazgul before Gandalf So Nazgul: +- 48 hours Gandalf +- 42 hours c.That estimation corresponds to evidence, supported by several quotes, that Tolkien believed Nazgul horses to be very swift but not so swift as Shadowfax. 2. Nazgul horses are likely to be Mearas, as in Rohan there were a. ordinary horses b. Mearas (descended from Felarof horse of Eorl). Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. c. Shadowfax - the Lord of horses, a special case " And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world". The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas. Seems convincing to me. However, there is a possibility that they come from entirely different bloodline (i.e. Valinorean elven horses or some other) but it seems less likely. That's about the size of it. Gordis Last edited by Gordis : 05-20-2005 at 06:48 PM. |
||
05-21-2005, 02:18 PM | #60 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
I agree (for once ) with you on all points, gordis.
It also brings up the question, Would the Valinorean horses be swifter than Mearas?
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Uruk-hai, or the journey there... | Olmer | Writer's Workshop | 43 | 06-01-2016 08:55 PM |
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? | Gordis | Middle Earth | 141 | 07-09-2006 07:16 PM |
Were the Nazgul incapable of suicide? (Even though it wasn’t such a bad idea) | CAB | Middle Earth | 23 | 06-26-2006 06:16 AM |
Nazgul horses | Nilore | Lord of the Rings Books | 16 | 11-05-2002 11:43 AM |