British/American Adversity to Learning Languages

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Huan how many languages do you speak fluently?

I was wondering the same thing. And how many have they taken it upon themselves to learn? I've attempted to learn Russian, Spanish, French, Latin and Italian. I know a little bit of each - but not enough to even be able to write. I have about 25 French books. I have Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter in French. I figured if I could compare the French Translations with the English - it would help me learn. I also used to go into French messageboards and see if i can pick up "non-textbook" French.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Aralyn
My four year old sister speaks Spanish, not fluently but can talk with you. Sure my dad speaks it to her but young children retain these things. Practice makes you better but it doesn't mean they'll forget it.

If she doesn't hear it again until she goes to high school though - she won't remember that much. She might remember some things - but she's not going to know any grammar rules or anything like that.

To me - reading languages isn't all that hard. It's really no different than learning a new programming language. Picking out words from a speaker and actually talking in the language is far more difficult than reading. Writing is the second hardest part. I got straight A's in Spanish and I got A's in French.

Here are some French websites I was using to learn French....

BBC Languages: French
Resources for Learning French
Ressources en français langue seconde
Learning French and French grammar

Grammaire française interactive
Guide de la phrase complexe
French Grammar Central
Tous Ã* la grammaire française!
REALLY USEFUL FRENCH TEACHING SITE
Grammaire et orthographe
FREN 215: Introduction Ã* la linguistique française
FRANÇAIS : GRAMMAIRE
Bonjour de France
Ados Le point de renontre des jeunes
@dosurf, l'espace libre des jeunes


By the way - through reading chat rooms I was able to find out that the slang term foy boy/man - similar to the english term "guy" is "mec" and other common slang terms. In French textbooks - they usually don't include common language like that.

[Sheeana]

New Zealand doesn't enforce you to learn languages unfortunately which is probably why I suck at picking them up. At various stages of my life I have tried to pick up Japanese, German, Russian, Dutch, French, signing, and Middle Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Of them all, the only one I did well at was the hieroglyphics - mainly because it's not really a spoken language, and it's easier to remember pictorial words, than it is letters.

[Huan]

Oookay, Jerseydevil, it isn't quote unquote proven that we have an instinct for language but it sure is well tested so far, and I firmly believe in the results. And that's the point: it doesn't matter if a six-year-old has opportunities to practice in public their knowledge of French or whatever in America, a child is just plain easier to teach French to than a teenager or adult. Period. And I think I've answered your other kind of hostile question about what languages I've bothered to learn. I had to learn them in my teens and early adulthood and therefore am not fluent in any of them, but my original point was that compared to the average American, at least I bothered trying. And you accuse me of arrogance, but what I said was based on several courses I've taken in linguistics and the accompanying textbooks. If you require sources, for starters pick up Steven Pinker's landmark study The Language Instinct. Anyhow yes I am arrogant concerning the subject I spent and borrowed thousands of dollars to learn something about, sue me.

Not wishing to get booted from Entmoot for flaming or whatever. Jerseydevil, you're right I'm wrong.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
If she doesn't hear it again until she goes to high school though - she won't remember that much. She might remember some things - but she's not going to know any grammar rules or anything like that.

To me - reading languages isn't all that hard. It's really no different than learning a new programming language.

Something like that for me. Before I started school, I spoke several dialects of Chinese pretty fluently. Now, I am really bad at them. I know some Indonesian, and I'm hoping to learn some more languages...but how? Damnit, I wish Australians were focussed on learning other languages.

Argh! Programming languages! Not going there again. No, real languages are far easier for me to learn. (Except of course, I'm no programmer. Hmmm)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Huan
Oookay, Jerseydevil, it isn't quote unquote proven that we have an instinct for language but it sure is well tested so far, and I firmly believe in the results. And that's the point: it doesn't matter if a six-year-old has opportunities to practice in public their knowledge of French or whatever in America, a child is just plain easier to teach French to than a teenager or adult. Period.

The ability to learn a foreign language has nothing to do with instinct - it has to do with how the brain develops. It's always easier for a child to learn something than for an adult. When a child is born - the brain is basically empty - no synapse connections, no language, no connection between the word dog, the letters d-o-g and the concept of what a dog is. After years - these get hardwired and it makes it much more difficult to learn a new language and a new word for dog. It makes it even more difficult if you can't use it everyday in order to reinforce it.
This what I said so you can read it again...

...Also - it's not instinct that enables a child to easily learn languages - it's the fact that the connections that make the brain process and understand language haven't been hard wired yet. As a person ages - these connections get more set and it's hard to make new connections in the brain...

And I think I've answered your other kind of hostile question about what languages I've bothered to learn. I had to learn them in my teens and early adulthood and therefore am not fluent in any of them, but my original point was that compared to the average American, at least I bothered trying. And you accuse me of arrogance, but what I said was based on several courses I've taken in linguistics and the accompanying textbooks. If you require sources, for starters pick up Steven Pinker's landmark study The Language Instinct. Anyhow yes I am arrogant concerning the subject I spent and borrowed thousands of dollars to learn something about, sue me.

A lot of people bother trying to learn a foreign language in the US - you are NOT alone. The problem is and I will state it again - there are only two primary languages on this continent - therefore - whether you learn a foreign language at 6 or 16 - you are NOT going to have an oppurtunity to keep the skills up. If you don't have an oppurtunity to use a language or use anything in everyday life - you will lose that skill. How many people who don't use Algebra in their work - still remember algebra 10 years after high school or college?

With effort - you can become fluent in a foreign language in adulthood - it's just more difficult. Also - not everyone is wired to learn languages. For some people it is much more difficult than others.

I agree that the average American doesn't bother to learn a foreign language on their own. But why is it necessary? If they're not going to go to Europe or something and have a chance to use it then what is the real need? I feel having an understanding of language and having a foreign language requirement in high school is important - but I don't think it is necessary for every American to speak another language fluently. There are a lot of things out there just as valable to know - such as physics, biology, chemistry, calculus, etc - but there is only so much time in a day.

What would come in more handy is if people tried teaching themselves a programming language - then they would understand how a computer works and know how much goes into getting it to do what the user wants. But I don't look down on people who don't know how to program or have no desire to learn - because it's their choice. You seem to think just because you have chosen to take it upon yourself to learn various foreign languages that everyone else is an idiot for not having a desire to.

[Baby-K]

In SA we have 11 official languages, each with their own regional dialect etc. The two most commonly spoken languages are English & Afrikaans with Zulu & Xhosa the most commonly spoken African languages. Our entire population speaks at least 2 languages fluently and in some cases even more.

Of course being a very cosmopolitan country there are a great many European and Asian communities represented as well, it would be extremely frustrating trying to learn all these languages. In my case for instance I have Portuguese, Greek, Japanese, Yugoslavian, Bulgarian, Polish, Dutch, German, Afrikaans, English, Zulu, Sotho, Xhosa, Coloured and Indian friends. If we all go out it would sound like a bizarre cacophony if we didn't communicate in English. When I'm with the family I speak my mother tongue - Afrikaans and at work I speak English even though it's not any of the people who work here's first language (My boss is Malawian, I'm Afrikaans, the other 2 guys are Xhosas from the old Transkei and the tealady is Sotho), so you see why it is just easier to speak English? (Though I do speak [broken] Sotho and Zulu and I can help myself / understand Xhosa, Dutch and German and swear / curse in Portuegese and sign )

One of our 'unofficial' languages is Funagalo, it's a language that was developped on the mines to accommodate the vast numbers of illiterate migrant workers that came to SA after the discovery of gold. The language is a mixture of English, Afrikaans, Portuguese (for the workers from Mozambique), Shangaan, Sepedi, isiZulu, isiXhosa, isiVenda and one or two more that I cannot remember. It's a completely different sound than any of the languages that 'built' it - quite amazing when you hear it (and to think it's only been around since the late 19th century)

I don't for one minute think that American and English people are adverse to learn other languages, it's just that there really is no need unless they travel a lot. English after all is the only 'official' language of their countries. In SA we speak English in most places as it is more convenient. Funny enough, from the number of Brittish friends I have, I have learnt that we speak "Queen's English" in SA & we do it better than most Brits Besides, one's ability to learn new languages does diminish with time.

What I would think is arrogant is if Americans & Brits (and other English - only countries) were to travel to foreign countries & just assume that the locals must speak English to accommodate them. That's why locals become rude to tourists, at least make an attempt to greet them in their own language. (You wouldn't have to worry if you are ever in SA though, we tend to be very relaxed about that - if you do hang out with the locals though you should expect to be taught a few phrases in the other languages. And of course we will laugh at your attempts, not to make you feel bad or degrade you, but because it will sound funny - Afrikaans & African languages have sounds that are totally foreign to the English language and foreigners invariably get them wrong)

As a matter of interest - there are Afrikaans universities in Russia. I thought it was weird when I heard it, because Afrikaans is mostly a language you speak at home & isn't really used internationally, so why would anyone who isn't planning on staying here want to learn it? Not that I mind, I love my language, it's extremely descriptive & alive. Ask any Englishman in SA, if someone insults you in English it's OK, but once you've been insulted in Afrikaans you feel like all the soap in the world could not wash you clean (English insults tend to stick to the 'f' word or 'sh*t' etc, whereas in Afrikaans we have about 7 different words that could have the same meaning as the 'f' word, but depending on the way you use the word it could take on a completely different meaning as well.

*checks length of post*

Sorry guys, I was ranting wasn't I? I'll stop now

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
*checks length of post*

Sorry guys, I was ranting wasn't I? I'll stop now

No - actually I thought it was interesting. I don't know anything about the African languages. I've mostly stuck with the European, although my friend Trish taught me some things in Mohawk.

[Baby-K]

No - actually I thought it was interesting. I don't know anything about the African languages. I've mostly stuck with the European, although my friend Trish taught me some things in Mohawk.

Thanks I'm very passionate about my country & people (especially about being Afrikaans) so sometimes I do get carried away.

Something else you might find of interest re the African languages are the way they have to sometimes describe an object at length because there is no singular word for it. And also how verbs etc are changed depending whether or not you are speaking to a singular person or more than 1.

For example, in North Sotho the singular noun for 'girl' is mosetsana. If you want to tell one girl to sit you'd say Motsetsana, sepela gabotse (Girl, please sit nicely), however if you wanted to say the same thing to 2 or 3 girls you'd have to change it to Basetsana sepelang gabotse (Basetsana is the plural girls & thus you have to add the 'ng' at the end of the verb to idicate that you are addressing the plural form). The same goes for greetings, if you greet on person it would be Dumela and in a crowd Dumelang. Also, if there is an important person you have to wait for him to greet you first, then your greeting must single him out (Like you have to say Dumela Morena...[morena means master / mister]) before you greet the other people. There are also different ways to say goodbye (depending on whether or not the person you are addressing is going to be staying in the same place or going somewhere else)

The zulus have a way of greeting or acknowledging you (I won't post the zulu words because I forget the correct spelling & if I misspell it it could mean something else) that translates to "JD, son of....., I see you" They usually do that when they want to let you know that you are important to them & you are welcome to speak (usually important people do this) (I'm not speaking out of first hand knowledge though, this is what my friend has told me).

I could post some of the Afrikaans things, but then I'd go on & on, which would be unfair to the people who aren't interested. But what I can say about the different languages is that each also comes with it's own cultural heritage, including traditional food, dress code and it even influenced the way their houses were built & decorated. And language / cultural groups also influence the political orientation of some groups.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sween
I know enought to be a polite tourist though. The dutch from my experience have an excellent grasp of english in fact much more so than english people.

I'm told it's mainly because of the actual Dutch language. Dutch has many sounds (more than English or so I'm told) so it's easier to pronounce things in other languages because we know much of the sounds. Sometimes it seems (from my point of view) that English-speaking people can't say a vowel without adding an 'i' sound. It's rather funny. But makes it difficult for me to read solitary vowels in English they sound waaay different than the Dutch way of pronouncing them.

Another factor is that Dutch has many borrowed words from German, French and English which makes the transit easier. And another thing is that most schools give 'standard' languages. Which means the foreign languages we learn are devoid of any local accent or local words.

[Case Sensitive]

Great responses! I'm not sure who said English is hard to learn but I can offer my experiences of learning English from my native German.

It was hard at first. I started quite late, and I firmly stuck into the harsh sounds of German. But I slowly mastered it and became more and more fluent. There is no secret to learning languages, its just practice, repetition- practice again and communicating with natives.

And by the way, I cannot, absolutely cannot pronounce my English 'w's as 'w's. I cannot help but fall into the German trap of pronouncing them all as 'v's. Okay, I'm a stereotype!

And remember, ve haff vays of making you talk, ja?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Case Sensitive
And by the way, I cannot, absolutely cannot pronounce my English 'w's as 'w's. I cannot help but fall into the German trap of pronouncing them all as 'v's. Okay, I'm a stereotype!

I had a german professor once at my university. He didn't use 'v' instead of 'w'. Probably a matter of practice, like you said. Stick with it, and you'll get it right eventually.

But none of us understood what he meant by 'AH-migga' (this really doesn't do his accent justice, though). He kept going on and on about 'Ah-migga' this and 'Ah-migga' that, the students stopped taking notes and were just staring at each other with frantic confused faces. No one daring to raise their hands. Then he draws lower case omega on the board... big sigh of relief from the room and everyone goes back to taking notes.

[Huan]

jerseydevil, all I'm going to say is, once again, I am not just stating an opinion here, I am referring to ample evidence that language is based on an instinct hardwired into young humans' brains. But obviously there's no point in arguing about it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Huan
jerseydevil, all I'm going to say is, once again, I am not just stating an opinion here, I am referring to ample evidence that language is based on an instinct hardwired into young humans' brains. But obviously there's no point in arguing about it.

Only the ability to communicate is instinctual - language itself is not. If language was instinctual - then we wouldn't have to spend years just to learn our native language.

Again - the only reason why it is easier for a child to learn a foreign language is because the brain has not become set in understanding and comprehending a particular language yet. This happens as a person gets older. There have been studies done showing a difference on wherea person's native language is stored in the brain versus languages learned later in life.

[Shadowfax]

I agree with what Jersey Devil is saying: my teacher was talking about that the other day.

I am 17 and I love languages. I live in Canada, so I am required to take French until grade 11, but I'm going to take it next year in grade 12, and on into University. I love French. All my friends hate it though, and I can't figure out why. Ignorance? I dunno..
I also want to study Old English (Anglo-Saxon) and maybe Icelandic (which is related to OE) at university. I also want to learn to speak Estonian, which is related to Finnish.

[markedel]

I disliked French and dropped it as soon as I could (after grade 10) but I regret it now.