11-06-2001, 05:38 PM | #41 |
Elf Lord
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The Balrogs are known to be fallen Maiar. All of the Ainur used forms visible to us as clothes, clothes that were expressions of their personalities. So may Yavanna clothe herself as a great tree, crowned by the sun under heaven -- while Melkor's original form on Earth was a great mountain that wades in the water, ice-cloaked and crowned with smoke and fire.
The normal state of your typical Ainu was unclothed, as a naked spirit. Some became Incarnate by their own free will or by design (such as Melian and the Istari), some lost their ability to change shape or walk unclad (such as Melkor and Sauron). Sauron's ability as a 'shape-shifter' is marked, it appears he was better at changing his clothes than others, or had more to choose from by some art. I don't doubt that before the making of the Ring Sauron could have looked like a Balrog if he wished (or look like what a Balrog wished to looked like most of the time). He lossed his ability to change shape after he put so much of himself in the Ring, though he had already been rendered incapable of assuming a fair form after the destruction of Númenor. CBG (nice avatar btw), 'Vala' means 'Power'.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
11-06-2001, 07:15 PM | #42 |
Enting
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hmmmmmm
"I assume you're using a compound statement/request and not an order in that sentance? In that case, you should make use of a reflexive pronoun. 'I' would be quite suitable.
If you are not, but in fact are stating an imperitive that I dislike my tone, I must reply as follows: Bah! In any case, I have a number of alternate tones at my disposal. Perhaps you would enjoy one of these? *outrageous drawl (I.e. my next door neighbor)* "I reckon tha' thisa one is mer suitable, doncha agree?" *tittering* Oh, yes! Morthoron has a pair of tights _just_ like those, but the chainmail halter is _too_ braldor. *Nasal* (raises nose in the air, and assumes Erudite stance)Yes, well, you see. My deployment of upherism premonstrating an inference of atticism in a prior theorum is quite frankly, none of your business. *singing elaborately* Spam (lovely spam) spam spam spam, (beautiful spam) spam spam spam, spam spam spam, wonderful spaaam! *harsh* Ash nazg durbatuluk! ash nazg gimbatul! Ash nazg thrakatuluk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! */waits for clouds to pass, and elves to uncover their ears, then continues: *bell tone* DING DONG *Dial Tone* Beep Beep Beep Beep *Tuning fork* riiiiiinnnnggggg *monotone* I...am...run...ning...for...pres...i...dent Find anything you like?" Do I insult you for trying [failing miserably though] to be clever, arrogant, obnoxious and patronising? Or do I just take it on the chin like a proud and dignified Englishman. Chin it is..........
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11-06-2001, 10:15 PM | #43 |
The Insufferable
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]:)
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-07-2001, 12:00 PM | #44 |
Enting
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nice reply wayfarer
i condiser us to be now message board allies.
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"I'd Rather Be a No-one Than Someone With No-one" |
11-09-2001, 03:13 AM | #45 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NJ
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Wings debate
IMHO, the answer to whether balrogs have wings or not can be found here:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ If you look up 'Balrog', there is an excellent section covering both sides of the argument about balrog wings. It completely cleared the issue up for me. Grendel |
11-09-2001, 06:19 AM | #46 |
Elf Lord
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The Balrog in Lord of the Rings was awakened by dwarves delving deep into the mountains, yes? Does this mean that they did not serve Sauron, were there more Balrogs in the world, and if they were not connected to Sauron did they continue surviving after Sauron's fall?
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11-09-2001, 05:59 PM | #47 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote:
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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11-16-2001, 04:42 PM | #48 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
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The Balrog is a very mysterious, unseen, but extremely powerful creature. In one way I'd like to know more about it, but on the other hand maybe it's best that it remains a sort of mystery menace.
The Balrog doesn't appear to be as "dark" as the Nazgul, although it is more powerful - IIRC, when a Nazgul passed overhead, Frodo thought that it was not a Balrog, but something more sinister. Correct me if I'm wrong, I only have a vague recollection of that point in the journey. |
11-17-2001, 04:08 PM | #49 |
Hobbit
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A Balrog is a Balrog is a Balrog. Wings or no wings it like the Jabberwalkie in 'Alice In Wonderland'. It is as powerful as our imagination makes it. If it indeed has wings in the movie it will be because the CGI animater decides it will be so.
"A Quote is a Quote is a Quote" Smiles All |
11-20-2003, 12:39 PM | #50 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quoted from Appendix A in LotR under:
Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-20-2003, 01:46 PM | #51 |
Elf Lord
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Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth
________________________________________ Ahhhhh! But does "flying" mean moving through the air or running fast? Actually that's a good point, maybe they did fly. Good grief, did PJ actually get something right?
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11-20-2003, 01:52 PM | #52 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
See here is my thing. Tolkien uses "fly" in a number of ways in his works, so it is hard to tell in this instance, however if he wanted it to say that the Balrog was escaping or running away, then the proper usage would be the term "flight" which is a derivation of "fly", but who knows
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-20-2003, 04:02 PM | #53 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I have gone to being sure that Balrogs had wings to being sure that they didn't, and now I'm just neutral. To me the most telling evidence that they, or at least some of them did, was the passage in Morgoth's Ring :
Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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11-20-2003, 04:10 PM | #54 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
Wow, I've never read that one. That is pretty compelling as well in my opinion...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-20-2003, 08:02 PM | #55 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Glad you liked it; credit Michael Martinez for pointing it out.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-20-2003, 10:32 PM | #56 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NJ
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Gandalf told the fellowship "Fly you fools" just before the Balrog pulled him down. Are you suggesting that he wanted them to sprout wings and take off in the air?
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11-20-2003, 11:06 PM | #57 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-21-2003, 06:54 AM | #58 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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While I am an adherent of the "winged Balrog" theory, I think that that quote in the Appendix indicates fleeing more than being winged. Though the MR one is great.
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11-21-2003, 03:49 PM | #59 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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To me, the telling words in the quote I posted above are "arose" and "with winged speed." Strangely enough, Christopher Tolkien omitted those last three from the published Silmarillion.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-21-2003, 06:30 PM | #60 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NJ
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Yes, the balrog "arose" from DEEP underground. It was hiding there for centuries. It had to flee from Angmar when the forces of good were victorious, which is why the phrase "that, flying from thangorodrim" is followed by "had lain hidden". The word "flying" is clearly being used as a synonym for "flee". The balrog had to flee Thangorodrim and run and hide.
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