05-25-2006, 02:09 AM | #41 | |||
Elven Warrior
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05-25-2006, 04:20 AM | #42 | |
Elven Warrior
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I'll say this; I personally doubt that Sauron much distrusted the Nazgul. I think that when he had either the One Ring or the Nine Rings, they were pretty much in his grasp (but not completely, 100% of the time). There is evidence to the contrary however. My problem with this evidence (the evidence regarding their “refusal” to capture the Ring, at least) is that it doesn’t seem to show any clear intent by the Nazgul. What was their plan? Not taking the Ring would help to keep it from Sauron, but it really doesn’t do much for the Nazgul, except maybe prolong some kind of hope. I also wonder if they would have expected the Wise to try to destroy the Ring. Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have a strong opinion concerning the Nazguls’ attempts/non-attempts to capture the Ring. Their actions seem strange whether looked at from a “somewhat free” or “entirely subservient” point of view. |
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05-25-2006, 11:19 AM | #43 | |
Elven Warrior
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But even if he did state things as you did, we still can't infer that the "subserviency" premise is false, because we don't know the extent of "primary" (if it means 99.9999% control, that would make it a non-issue again). |
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05-25-2006, 03:32 PM | #44 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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The secondary control that Frodo, wielding the Ring, would have over the nazgul was strong enough to stop them from attacking him by force! They would have "shown servility" etc. Do you REALLY believe it is 0.001% control??? Really, Landroval, I can't agree with your point. |
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05-25-2006, 05:50 PM | #45 | |
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05-26-2006, 10:42 AM | #46 | |||
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I have a nasty feeling we will be nitpicking about this for a looong time. EDIT: well, I didn't want to restart this thing all over again, so I just edited my post: Quote:
Last edited by Landroval : 06-10-2006 at 03:12 PM. |
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05-26-2006, 06:46 PM | #47 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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ONLY, I find it unbearably dull. So let us agree that we disagree on all points and leave it at that. |
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02-18-2009, 08:59 AM | #48 |
Sapling
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I do believe there is a reason Sauron could have expected that a Ring-bearer might have been creeping across Cirith Ungol into Mordor that had nothing to do with destroying the Ring: assassination. He assumed that no one would desire to destroy it. He assumed one of the great would acquire it and seek to subjugate the world. He had, in Mordor, a pre-fabbed army trained and equipped for the destruction of Minas Tirith. Gandalf (for example) could plan to sneak into Mordor (even without the Ring, I feel he would have been willing to face Shelob), sneak into Barad-Dur, *splortch* Sauron, and wrest control of the troops? I believe he would have failed, but it seems reasonable to think Sauron could have planned for that as a contingency. Throughout the tale we are told he believes one of the great will acquire the ring and seek to use it, and that does not necessarily mean using it in a pitched battle.
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02-18-2009, 10:09 AM | #49 |
Elf Lord
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Could someone have mastered The One Ring and used it to overthrow Sauron or not? Seems to me, if not, then he had nothing to fear. Yet, he was clearly afraid that someone would do exactly that. Why? I've never heard an explanation that satisfies me on this point.
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02-18-2009, 03:38 PM | #50 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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DPR, it is all in the letter 246.
One "of equal stature", = Gandalf could have mastered the Ring. Tolkien is uncertain about Elrond and Galadriel. Men - no. (I am quoting from memory) |
02-18-2009, 05:46 PM | #51 | |
Salt Miner
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From the end of Letter 246:
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02-18-2009, 06:12 PM | #52 |
Elf Lord
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So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?
Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron: Sauron: Give me the ring, boy. Aragorn: Ok. Here. Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done. What am I missing here?
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02-18-2009, 07:01 PM | #53 | |
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02-19-2009, 04:43 AM | #54 | |
Elven Warrior
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02-20-2009, 02:15 PM | #55 |
Elf Lord
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That is an excellent point.
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