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10-09-2004, 09:21 AM | #41 | |
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HOWEVER - I think it very likely when Tolkien wrote this that he DID consider the messenger to be a nazgul. I was just tossing out another possibility that occurred to me. I don't know if he really worked out all the timeframe elements for this little part of the story though... hard to say. I'll have to look into it, if & when I get the chance. Anyway folks - we're diverging from discussion of this chapter. Azalea's intent was that the chapter in question be the focus of discussion each time - and that we refrain from going into other sources too much - so that even those who had only read LOTR would feel comfortable participating. We certainly can... and SHOULD ... get into these other things, but maybe a separate thread would be better suited. Olmer - I strongly agree that the Elves made constant use of their rings... that's how Rivendell and Lorien were kept as they were. The only way that Sauron would have been aware of their use, and had power of it, was by recovering The One. I disagree about the choice of who went to Rivendell from Minas Tirith. Faramir considered it his task, but Boromir wanted to go badly. Their father would rather have kept Boromir with him and sent Faramir, but gave in to Boromir's wishes. Isn't that how Faramir frames it? (and here I go... diverging! ) Do you consider Faramir, at least, to be a 'straight-shooter'? Well... would like to say more, but my 2-year old wants to be read to (and he's not ready for LOTR... )
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10-10-2004, 12:14 AM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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Olmer, you asked:
Quote: Originally Posted by inked It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals. What exactly was Denethor's goals in sending Boromir? IMHO, Denethor's goals in sending Boromir were to search out any aid, especially of arms and materiels that would aid Denethor in opposing Sauron. Since he had been utilizing the palantir, and was probably ensnared by Sauron's misdirections, there exists the probability that this was a covert Sauron "find the Ring" exertion. Denethor would have had no knowledge of the One, but it wasn't necessary for him to know; only necessary that Sauron be apprised of its approximate location. Boromir was the better candidate as he was most like his father and Denethor could therefore better anticipate his actions and reactions. He seems to have distrusted Faramir as being insufficiently "in line" with the Denthorian modus operandi. Denethor complained of Faramir's penchant for spending time with Gandalf and had the same strength which refused the Ring when given the opportunity. As Denethor descended into the futility Sauron showed him, even in the early stages he would have developed a distaste for all who did not see through his eyes and understandings, or at least a sense that here was someone who thought differently. And it is ever the despot who dreads the innovater. The upstart in ideas may be obedient in service, but you can never be TOO certain that they won't break the mold at critical junctures. Boromir was much more reliable in that way than Faramir. And Boromir performed the function admirably. It was only his encounter with Frodo over the Ring at Amon Hen that opened Boromir's mind and spirit to the potential danger of the Ring and of his father's limitation and his own in the matter of Gondor. Boromir repented his folly. But had he convinced them to go via Minas Tirith, I have no doubt he would have been his father's son in every respect Denethor wished. This whole sequence of events is a meditation on "a fate worse than death" in which the penance unto death in Boromir's case saves him from a Nazgul's existence. No doubt had Boromir seized the Ring and exercised those abilities his father so prized under the Ring's and Sauron's influence, Denethor would have abruptly ended his Stewardship on the end of Boromir's sword! So think I, at any rate.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-11-2004, 02:32 PM | #43 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Denethor nor Boromir knew nothing of the Ring. Forget the scene in TTT EE where Denethor know's all about it. Boromir came to Rivendell concerning only his vision, nothing else.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-11-2004, 03:37 PM | #44 |
Elf Lord
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So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion?
We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-12-2004, 04:40 AM | #45 | |
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Quote:
Can we keep to things more relevant to what is DISCUSSED during the Council?
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10-12-2004, 11:36 AM | #46 |
Elf Lord
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pardon!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-13-2004, 04:05 AM | #47 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
All this "dysfunctional relationship of Denethor's family" is not even hinted at in the Council of Elrond chapter.
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10-30-2004, 08:55 AM | #48 |
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Honour to FF for a good summary!
Bilbo is now telling the full and true story of how he came by the Ring. Is that because he is now free from the bad influence the Ring had on him? Or is it because he now has learned much more about the true nature of the Ring? Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with C*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron? When Frodo has volunteered to take the Ring, Elrond names him among the Elf-friends of old: Hador, Húrin, Túrin and Beren. I have long had a grudge against Elrond because he did not mention Tuor! Why not?
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10-30-2004, 02:19 PM | #49 | |
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 10-30-2004 at 02:21 PM. |
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10-31-2004, 05:52 PM | #50 | |
Elf Lord
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And I agree with Telcontar - I think Elrond was refering to Elves, because the Elves fought and won Sauron.. and the Elves of the Heavens did take part in those wars. |
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10-31-2004, 09:24 PM | #51 | |
Elf Lord
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Considering that Cirdan don't have any power enhancement by the Ring, it must be the man-power, er.. elves-power. Which means that, according to Elrond, at the time of the War of the Rings in Lindon was enough elves-warriers to defy Sauron; if not that, what else then?. Therefore we are coming back to the question, how dangerous for the Elves has been the whole situation with Sauron's dominion over the Middle-earth ? Not so dangerous if they didn't bother to send any help to eradicate the prospective new ruler of the World, which shows that they did not mind having Sauron around as long as he does not try to manipulate them, the Elves, especially, the Elves with the Rings of Power. And here we come that the whole ordeal about the Ring's destruction was not exactly about saving the free folk of Middle-earth, but about prevention of Sauron to get hold on the Wise and Ageless. Fodo has been sacrified, because nobody else, even elves, couldn’t fit better for the job; the only hobbit-kind, due to their close friendship with the earth possessed the art of moving swiftly and silently and be almost invisible to others, therefore having more chances to get to the aimed point - Mount Doom. |
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11-02-2004, 09:53 AM | #52 | |
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01-27-2005, 02:00 PM | #53 |
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Th council of Elrond is one of my favourite parts.I really enjoy the part when Borimir talks.He is so lordly
But my favourite part from that scene is when Gimli talks |
01-29-2005, 12:22 AM | #54 |
Elven Warrior
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My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well. I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that? |
01-29-2005, 09:16 AM | #55 | |
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Quote:
but the tense of the first line does give it more impact, and in england we have a saying "All that glitters is not gold", i think JRRT was trying to give that line an older feel to it ps welcome to the moot |
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01-30-2005, 02:34 PM | #56 | |
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Quote:
I can't see any other reason than meter. The way it is stated can possibly even be misinterpreted, methinks, to form something meaning "Nothing gold glitters", so your version is probably less ambiguous. But then again, I think the poem was aiming towards ambiguity.
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02-12-2005, 03:54 PM | #57 | |
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In addition, Sauron fears the sea...not only because Ulmo still aids the elves, but because he was once already nearly destroyed by the sea, in Numenor's downfall...One always fears what they cannot control. And the strength of elves is not to be underrated anyways.
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03-23-2005, 02:47 PM | #58 | ||||
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I have just read the tread and could not resist the temptation to participate. Olmer's posts in particular are so interesting and challenging!
So I have to catch up: I agree that the messenger to Erebor was a nazgul. I believe that Sauron was paranoid about letting anyone but "his most trusted servants" (the nazgul) handle the ring. And for all he knew Bilbo might have been still in Erebor with the ring. (The messenger asks for the ring or any hints on it). So the messenger was certainly a nazgul. And the description of the messenger who came alone at night fits it perfectly. I think that Olmer is right in identifying the nazgul as Khamul. Not only Dol Guldur was closer to Erebor than Barad Dur, but also the nazgul was HISSING: Quote:
Quote:
There is more. In UT we read: "At length they returned... and met messengers from Barad Dur conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay". Why would Sauron be so angry if the nazgul went on an errand to Erebor on his orders? No, the nazgul really wasted their time in the vales of Anduin, walking their horses to Gundabad and back again. Nice 1,5 months vacations they had. So Sauron had reasons to be mad. Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 03-23-2005 at 02:51 PM. |
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03-23-2005, 04:52 PM | #59 |
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]Summary
So...this chapter has the least action of almost any other chapter in the Lord of the Rings...it is basically all talk. The chapter begins with Frodo waking up, taking a walk with Sam and meeting up wih Gandalf and Bilbo. Then the Council begins. There are 11 speakers in this chapter: Bilbo Gandalf Frodo Sam Elrond Gloin Boromir Aragorn Legolas Galdor of the Havens Erestor Glorfindel And in addition 9 more characters are quoted directly Dain the Messenger from Mordor Isildur Saruman Radagast Denethor Barliman Butterbur Gwaihir the Gaffer Not to mention counless characters who mentioned in detail and in passing hey! I'm intrigued - can't remember that bit, what was the direct quote from Barliman Butterbur?? really like to know! |
03-23-2005, 04:57 PM | #60 |
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]You have no idea how hard it is to Summarize 43 pages of dialogue.
Try editing summarising and subtitling a 1hr discourse on Hypnothreapy! (its the subtitling bit that's rally the killer!) |
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