Blame Fëanor

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Stop spamming my thread!

Come on, we have to prove Fëanor's evil, not that magic 8 balls are annoying!

Are you accusing me of spamming? I was merely pointing out that Fëanor and the "evil" magic 8 ball are related in their evilness. We all know that everything is Fëanor's fault, and that his feet smell, and the 8 ball confirms it all.

[ItalianLegolas]

I'll stay out of this one then

[Manveru]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It was because of Fëanor, not Morgoth that the Noldor went into exile. All in all I think yes. Blame Fëanor!

Exactly!! Without Feanor Morgoth would have conquered the Great Lands and then gone on to attack Valinor. If the Noldor hadn't been exiled there would have been no war. he would have just finished off the Sindar, corrupted the men, and routed the dark elves. then once he had a big enough force he could assault valinor with all his dragons, balrogs, trolls, men, orcs, etc.

I realize Feanor wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he was mainly corrupted by Morgoth, he should be pitied, not blamed. He's sorta like Denethor getting corrupted by Sauron but I don't hear anyone going "Oh its Denethors fault that Gondor was getting attacked"

[Elemmírë]

A nonspammy response! Yay!

Originally Posted by Manveru

Exactly!! Without Feanor Morgoth would have conquered the Great Lands and then gone on to attack Valinor. If the Noldor hadn't been exiled there would have been no war. he would have just finished off the Sindar, corrupted the men, and routed the dark elves.

As opposed to him finishing off the Sindar, corrupting (or more likely killing) the men, routing the dark elves, and killing off most of the Noldor to go with it?

then once he had a big enough force he could assault valinor with all his dragons, balrogs, trolls, men, orcs, etc.

Well... Ar-Pharazon tried that too...

I realize Feanor wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he was mainly corrupted by Morgoth, he should be pitied, not blamed. He's sorta like Denethor getting corrupted by Sauron but I don't hear anyone going "Oh its Denethors fault that Gondor was getting attacked"

Denethor didn't take the people of Gondor and march them into Mordor. If he had, I bet you'd be hearing that sort of stuff...

[Minielin]

Ultimately, though, it was Morgoth who deviated from the Music. So... though Feanor can be blamed for a large portion of the problems, the ultimate bulk of the problems come from Morgoth.

[Count Comfect]

In addition, hate to be a bother, but perhaps Tolkien WOULD have created the Two Trees without the future Silmarils - art for art's sake, beauty for beauty's sake, and all that jazz. The Trees are still a powerful metaphor.

Still very compelling antiFeänorian rhetoric though.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Manveru

I realize Feanor wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he was mainly corrupted by Morgoth, he should be pitied, not blamed. He's sorta like Denethor getting corrupted by Sauron but I don't hear anyone going "Oh its Denethors fault that Gondor was getting attacked"

Excuse me, you seem to have stumbled into the wrong thread. This is the blame Fëanor thread
Now a little bit more seriously: I think you'll agree with me that Saruman was evil, won't you? Well, I think that Saruman and Fëanor are much alike in the following respects:
-They were both deluded, Morgoth played on Fëanor's hubris and Sauron on Saruman's lust for power.
-Both had the chance for redemption (Fëanor could have accepted to give the Silmarils to Yavanna and Saruman could have come down from Orthanc) and they spurned it.
Would you say then that you pity Saruman? No, I don't think so!
Yes, Fëanor was misguided by Morgoth, but shouldn't he have known better? I mean, he lived with the GODS of ME for pity's sake! Plus, Morgoth inflamed Fëanor's pride, but Fëanors more than unhelthy obsession with the Silmarils (some people would call that "fetishism") was his own doing: that guy (or, more accurately, "elf") loved the work of his hands too much

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Minielin

Ultimately, though, it was Morgoth who deviated from the Music. So... though Feanor can be blamed for a large portion of the problems, the ultimate bulk of the problems come from Morgoth.

A very large portion.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

In addition, hate to be a bother, but perhaps Tolkien WOULD have created the Two Trees without the future Silmarils - art for art's sake, beauty for beauty's sake, and all that jazz. The Trees are still a powerful metaphor.

It's hard to say one way or the other, but to me the Silmarilli just seem so central to the whole story that it's hard for me to believe that the Trees, in his mind, were created first. I could be wrong, of course (and as soon as I get around to reading my new copy of the Letters, maybe I'll find out. )

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Yes, Fëanor was misguided by Morgoth, but shouldn't he have known better? I mean, he lived with the GODS of ME for pity's sake! Plus, Morgoth inflamed Fëanor's pride, but Fëanors more than unhelthy obsession with the Silmarils (some people would call that "fetishism") was his own doing: that guy (or, more accurately, "elf") loved the work of his hands too much

Nothing wrong with blaming and pitying at the same time, I don't think, but you've got some excellent points.

[Manveru]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Yes, Fëanor was misguided by Morgoth, but shouldn't he have known better? I mean, he lived with the GODS of ME for pity's sake!

Don't forget that Melkor was pretending to be good at this point. Even the "GODS of ME" didn't realize it. So no I don't think he should have known better.

[Pytt]

I don't rellay know if I think Feanor is to blame so much. Of course, he did an awful lot of bad stuff, but still. Not for everything, but for a good bit.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Manveru

Don't forget that Melkor was pretending to be good at this point. Even the "GODS of ME" didn't realize it. So no I don't think he should have known better.

Come on! He must have been the most paranoid guy in Valinor! He saw through Morgoth when he came to Formenos, finally.

And then the problems really started.

I don't think Beren meant that he should have known enough to not trust Morgoth, though. It seems to me that having living with and learned from Gods he should know enough not to do things like rebellion and kinslaying and treason and...

You get the point, I think.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I don't think Beren meant that he should have known enough to not trust Morgoth, though. It seems to me that having living with and learned from Gods he should know enough not to do things like rebellion and kinslaying and treason and...

Couldn't have put it better myself!

El, I wouldn't blame Melkor's deviation from the Music on Fëanor, that would be pushing it! However, what you can blame on him is the long-debated "the Valar shirking their duty" thing. Look how he could inflame a host of Noldor and coax even the sons of Finarfin to come along. If only he used this eloquence to rouse the Valar into action...ME would've been rid of Morgoth pretty early and then Elves could have returned to live in ME with no grudges on the Valar's part whatsoever.

So in conclusion everyone, whenever you feel sad for Turin, Luthien or anyone else...you know what to do: Blame Fëanor

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Couldn't have put it better myself!

El, I wouldn't blame Melkor's deviation from the Music on Fëanor, that would be pushing it!

Well, yes. I know it's pushing it... but we came in with the intention to blame everything on Fëanor, and it was a legitimate exception that had to be looked at and explained in such a way that Fëanor actually could be held responsible... at a theoretical level if nothing else.

Originally Posted by Pytt

I don't rellay know if I think Feanor is to blame so much. Of course, he did an awful lot of bad stuff, but still. Not for everything, but for a good bit.

Yes, but it's fun to blame him for everything.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

However, what you can blame on him is the long-debated "the Valar shirking their duty" thing. Look how he could inflame a host of Noldor and coax even the sons of Finarfin to come along. If only he used this eloquence to rouse the Valar into action...ME would've been rid of Morgoth pretty early and then Elves could have returned to live in ME with no grudges on the Valar's part whatsoever.

Yes.

[Pytt]

Yes, maybe it is I have never thought properly about it. think I have to.

[Wayfarer]

Times have changed,
Those men are getting worse
They won't obey their elders.
They just fight and reproduce! Should we blame the Valar, or blame poor uprbinging, or should we blame the images on the palintiri? No!
Blame Feanor! Blame Feanor!

With his sons so cold and cruel,
And that stupid set of jewels!
Blame Feanor!
Blame Feanor!
We don't care if he's dead, put the blame on his head! Don't blame me, for Sauron and the Rings, it's those bloody Noldor and their shiny things!
And those humans once, looked up to us, but now they're self-important with their petty little kings!
Well, Blame Feanor!

It seems that everything's gone wrong since
Feanor came along
Blame Feanor!
Blame Feanor! He's not even a real elf anyway. We could have hung around in Valinor, it's true! Instead we're the main course at an orcish Barecue! Should we blame old Morgoth? Should we blame the orcs, or the soldiers who can't seem to do a thing to win this war? Heck no!
Blame Feanor!
Blame Feanor!
With his three fancy shiny jewels and his seven little fools. Blame Feanor!
Shame on Feanor!

No more magical toys!
No more unwinnable wars!
No Matter what you say,
we'll hate him anyway!
We must blame him and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming us!

:eyeshift:

[Pytt]

Your a genius, Wayfarer! I have thought about that song since this thread was created, but that is truly great!

[Elemmírë]

Heh. That's pretty good, Wayfarer.

[Count Comfect]

Brilliant song adaptation, Wayfarer.

On the topic of retroactive blame... I wonder if you could say that when Morgoth made his music go wrong, he had an idea in his mind of the havoc he would cause... havoc, embodied by Feänor... and therefore Feänor's future existence (or at least the existence of someone acting like Feänor) inspired the musical alterations.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

maybe the concept of feanor was melkor's deviant music?

[Count Comfect]

Oooh, interesting idea