07-29-2006, 08:11 AM | #41 |
Hobbit
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Mere hatred... Mere hatred... If I'm going down then you're coming with me sort of thinking if you will. Sauron was a great student of Morgoth. Morgoth wanted to ursup Iluvatar's power. He hated the love Iluvatar bore to his creation (Arda, elves, men). Morgoth passed on this hatred to his best student "Sauron".
And a little revenge... Also, don't forget Sauron left his armies back at home, who were not afraid of Middle Earth's inhabitants. As soon as he got back home, he had an instant black army. His army fled and was not destroyed by Ar-Pharazon. His armies were afraid of the numerous (and mighty) Numenoreans. Don't forget Numenoreans were a blood mixture of elves and men. The Numenoreans were direct decendents of the only two people on Arda that (at that moment in time) punked him (Luthien and Beren). Eonwe had also punked him but he doesn't count as a person. |
07-29-2006, 08:14 AM | #42 | |
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Hatred and Revenge
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Please read Post #41 |
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07-29-2006, 05:35 PM | #43 | |||||
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Tolkien states Sauron’s motives explicitly in Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion”:
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It was not “mere hatred” that drove Sauron. In Morgoth’s Ring, Tolkien states that Morgoth was a “nihilist”: that is, he wanted the destruction of all Arda: Quote:
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08-03-2006, 01:59 AM | #44 |
Hobbit
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Alcuin,
Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan? You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants? You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context. I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension. Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed". |
08-03-2006, 03:47 AM | #45 | ||||||
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Sauron was not out to destroy the world the way Morgoth was. At one point, Tolkien even described Sauron as a “reformer”: in Letter 153 of The Letters of JRR Tolkien, he wrote, Quote:
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We come to these forums to learn. Okay, and to show off a little. But if it’s a choice between learning and showing off, choose the learning every time. Showing off can get you embarrassed. (Which is better than what happens in the real world: “Hey, ya’ll! Watch this!” or “Look, Ma! No hands!”) You now know about Morgoth’s Ring. If you’re interested in Tolkien, really interested, go take a look at it. Get a copy from the library, read it, or at least those sections that appeal to you, and tell us what you think about it. You might enjoy reading the part about what motivated Morgoth and Sauron: Morgoth was functional, but ultimately he was way beyond homicidal and possibly insane: his purpose was to destroy whatever anyone and everyone else made. There really are people like this in the real world: you may not have met one yet, or realized that you’ve met one, but you will. Sauron wanted to be in charge. He was ok with Arda: he wanted to rule it: he wanted it for his own. There are people like that, too, and you probably have met and recognized them. (Most people have had their first experience with a selfish “Sauron” by age 5.) That’s my response. You can take it or leave it; but before you fire off an angry answer, just think about it for a couple of hours. And find yourself a copy of Morgoth’s Ring. You might like it. |
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08-03-2006, 04:01 PM | #46 | |
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Alcuin made some excellent points, as usual. I would only like to point out that Myths Transformed is one of the most controversial Tolkien texts in existence. Chris himself has called it "a fearful weapon against his own creation", due to its drastic revision of the entire creation. If there was a quote in Silmarillion which would challenge the MT on the case in question, I would say it is this one, which pretty much equates the path of Sauron with the one of Melkor:
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08-03-2006, 04:06 PM | #47 |
Hobbit
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Alcuin,
I am not angry, and I hope my initial response was not interpreted that way. Maybe a little sarcastic, but in no way angry. I did discover a new thing which you mentioned twice. That not all Numenoreans were descended from Elros. Quite interestingly enough I haven't read the Silmarillion in a few years. I understand your point about Morgoth's intentions vs. Sauron's and I will not give in so easy to any thought. I know my web name is Ellf (which happen to be my initials), but I'm more of a Dwarf if you may (a little stiff necked). So I must say that I will look a little more into it, because I do believe and remember reading in the Sil. that Morgoth wanted the domination of Arda. Now, whether Tolkien wrote this and disagreed with his thoughts later (which I'm finding more and more often), I will find out. This is a thread based upon the Sil. is it not. Now, regarding ethnic cleansing, I do believe that Sauron had hatred in his heart to murder people and sacrafice them to Morgoth. Also if Tolkien claims Morgoth was a "nihilist" wouldn't his best disciple be one also? Well any how I will look into this a little further, because I do remember reading in the Sil. that Sauron was very similar to his Master. By the way, why didn't Morgoth destroy the Simarils? Why didn't he destroy Luthien when she was in his presence? Hmmmm? Sorry for the sarcasim. |
08-03-2006, 04:26 PM | #48 |
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Landroval,
Thank you, you found the passage I was going to begin to look for tonight. Ellf |
08-03-2006, 04:28 PM | #49 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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i think Sauron did want to distroy the free peoples of Middle Earth by the end of the Third age, but that was only to regain his one Ring, so that he could control them. Certainly in the early part of the second age, he wanted to corrupt the elves, hense the 20 Rings of Power. And you're correct in saying that Morgoth did want total domination of all of Beleriand. I mean, look at what he did at Nirnaeth Arnoediad and beyond.
"This is consistent with what we know of Sauron's character - he always prefers to work from behind the scenes, manipulating events to his favour. On the rare occasions where he goes into battle himself, he is always defeated. This perhaps helps to explain his decision in the later Second Age not to offer battle to the armies of Númenor." Encyclopedia of Arda.
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08-03-2006, 04:57 PM | #50 |
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No problem, Ellf. Sarcasm welcome – I have been accused of overusing it myself. So we have some common ground upon which maneuver.
Morgoth lusted after the Silmarils. Lust is very different from love, and even very different from what we English-speakers called like in the sense of preference. Tolkien’s friend C.S. Lewis wrote a little book, The Four Loves, that explores this difference in its early going; I am reading it now myself. Lust will last a while, but once it is sated, it goes cold, and he who lusted only a brief while ago will have nothing to do with the object for which he lusted once his desire has been satisfied. In the end, Morgoth would have destroyed not only the Silmarils, but all of Arda; but in the meantime, he had the objects that all the Powers of Arda and all the Eldar of Arda sought to possess for different reasons. He had no problem killing the Two Trees whose light was enmeshed in the Silmarils, nor in feeding Ungoliant the bright gems of Fëanor’s hoard until she swelled to monstrous size and able to threaten him. (Surely Ungoliant is also a fallen Maia, but not in the train of Morgoth, although to satisfy her own lusts she cooperated with him for a while.) The fate of Arda, said the Valar, was tied to the Three Jewels, and no doubt Morgoth was aware of this, too: as long as he held them, to some degree, he held the rest of Arda in thrall, and that give him power, for which he also lusted. Morgoth had every intention of using – or abusing – Lúthien for his own nefarious purposes. It amused his evil disposition to let her run free in his throne room for a while: after all, she was in his power, in the very heart of his realm: how could she ever hope to escape? But in the end, she did – and with Beren, she wrested one of the Silmarils from Morgoth’s crown. Morgoth’s desire for Lúthien was lust, and worse: he had tried ages before to ravish the Maia Arien, who later led the Sun in its passage across the sky of Arda. Morgoth no doubt had very foul intentions for Lúthien. He was far from done with her: he had not even begun. Perhaps in the end, had he been permitted to continue long enough in his path of evil, Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was. Although that is not the inference ones draws from Tolkien’s material, I don’t believe it can be altogether dismissed. Again, it is not an inference I would draw from his detailed explanations, but it is one you have drawn from the materials you have already read. |
08-03-2006, 05:03 PM | #51 | |
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08-03-2006, 06:52 PM | #52 | ||
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But I believe you misunderstood me, jammi567. My position is Quote:
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08-03-2006, 06:54 PM | #53 |
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So i can understand what you're saying, what does nihilist mean?
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08-03-2006, 09:23 PM | #54 | |
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The phrase “doesn’t play well with others” does not even begin to describe Melkor/Morgoth. In several instances, Tolkien refers to him as “the Diabolus.” Last edited by Alcuin : 08-03-2006 at 09:26 PM. |
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08-04-2006, 08:35 AM | #55 |
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I couldn't agree more.
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