06-02-2002, 08:03 PM | #41 |
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saying feanor would have still been a "villain" even if morgoth's lies had not spread through the noldor is like saying turin would have still done the wrongs that he did without the curse of morgoth or dragon.
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06-02-2002, 09:44 PM | #42 |
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Túrin was by nature a goodly person (though carried away by emotion at times, "especially wrath"). Feanáro was not. Well, I suppose everyone's inner nature was good, or I believe so. Feanáro was however corrupt. Túrin was cursed, there is a huge difference.
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06-02-2002, 09:50 PM | #43 |
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i was merely using that as an example and yea there are drastic differences from feanor and turin.
i was just stating that saying feanor would still have been a 'villain" and done the the things he had if the lies of morgoth hadnt occured would be like saying turin wouldve still done all the bad things he did if he wasnt cursed. In other words. It wouldnt have happened.
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06-02-2002, 10:01 PM | #44 |
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Right. I'm attacking your example, to put it bluntly. I'm with them. Without Melkor, there obviously wouldn't be evil, but Curufinwe was not led astray by his lies alone. Whether Melkor was held captive in Aman or not, or whether he was freed, as long as he had ever existed and sown the seeds of evil, Feanáro would have been corrupt. I'm not saying his fall was a foregone conclusion in the beginning of the Music, I'm just trying to say he wasn't some poor nice guy that was victimized by Melkor's lies. He himself was at fault in a way that guys like Túrin and other good people were not.
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06-02-2002, 10:15 PM | #45 |
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Feanor is demonic. (Not literally. That's just been my "word" for the last week or so.)
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06-02-2002, 11:14 PM | #46 |
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Feanor is not 'demonic.'
Without Melkor he may have been very arrogant and prideful, but he would not have been a 'villain.' He may not have had a lot of friends, but he would not have, for example, pulled a sword on his brother. I believe, anyway. He would not have had a reason to, and he would not have been so angry and paranoid.
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06-02-2002, 11:48 PM | #47 | |
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With his last breathe he cursed his sons ( read that properly) to follow a doom that is unforgivable for a father.
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06-02-2002, 11:57 PM | #48 |
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He held them to their oath, which he could not have freed them from. And he died fighting balrogs, following his oath. I'm not saying he was perfect, or heroic, I just think you're being too harsh in judging him.
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06-03-2002, 12:02 AM | #49 |
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Well, Feanor was no hero, but I agree that he held his sons to their oath because he did not have the power to release them from it, an oath that never should have been sworn in the first place. It does seem that the people of the First age were big on swearing oaths though.
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06-03-2002, 12:03 AM | #50 | ||
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06-03-2002, 12:11 AM | #51 |
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He went to ME because of the Silmarils, and because he was angry with the Valar. His rebellion against the Valar was caused mostly by his rage at Melkor, and that Melkor was once a Valar. So why would have gone to ME otherwise?
He was not evil, far from it, I think. He just let his pride and emotions guide him when he should not have.
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06-03-2002, 12:21 AM | #52 | |
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I am curious about that. If he had said that ,seeing all was doomed to fail, "I bid thee not to continue this mad quest. I was wrong. My sons do not pursue the jewels any further. My love for you is greater than that of venegence or pride. though we have forsaken Valinor. We can a least return to the light as best we can. Pursue not Morgoth from this day forth. Resist is lies and power and perhaps you and our people will be spared from the folly I woud doom them to. I ask thee what is the greater sin, to follow a path that you know is wrong because you spoke with a wrathful tongue or turn from a path in humility for you erred. Forgive me my sons and by what ever power I have I set you free and take your sins and that of my followers unto me" This may have been better than even Earendil for Feanor the was the mover and shaker. Not to say that there would not have been war with Morgoth but it would have been of a different nature instead of be driven by venegnece it would be driven by the need for redeemption.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 06-03-2002 at 12:23 AM. |
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06-03-2002, 12:33 AM | #53 | |
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Fathers creating suicide/homocide bombers of their childern to me is unforgivable. The kinslaying and the burning of the ships are not acts I would call good. I think Feanor was tainted. Just like Anakin.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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06-03-2002, 12:36 AM | #54 | ||
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06-03-2002, 12:37 AM | #55 |
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Also I would say that his self centeredness was unparalelled say Morgoth.
He drove an entire nation and his children to doom for is own reasons. I would not call that good.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-03-2002, 12:41 AM | #56 | |
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06-03-2002, 12:43 AM | #57 | |
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How would it bring more evil? To use a christian/moslem example. If I swear an oath before God in to pursue some mad quest that will doom a nation and then I repent. How does that bring about more evil?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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06-03-2002, 12:47 AM | #58 | |
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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06-03-2002, 12:54 AM | #59 | |
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06-03-2002, 12:55 AM | #60 | ||
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And if it weren't for Eru... Cyclic reasoning at best.
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