11-13-2004, 04:23 AM | #41 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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11-13-2004, 07:26 AM | #42 | |
Fëanorophobic
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11-18-2004, 10:01 AM | #43 | |
Elven Warrior
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Secondly, what shortcomings? The Elves had every right to do what they wanted. It wasn't a summons as such, it was an offer. The decision for not bringing Men to Aman has nothing to do with the Great Journey. Men were to be the dominant race (eventually) in ME, as heard in parts during the Music. Also, Melkor Morgoth had been released from captivity before Men awoke and had slain the two trees and returned back to ME, which again was becoming a dangerous place. They would have had no intention of bringing Men to Aman.
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Durin the Sleepless! |
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11-22-2004, 06:47 PM | #44 |
Elven Warrior
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Location: Canada
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Hey guys,
I don't think the Valar were doing there jobs at all. Maybe in the beginning but they only interfered in ME when there were huge problems. They didn't really take thought for the future. When they captured Melkor before the coming of the elves they didn't search his fortress and get all of Melkor's servants. And after they defeated Melkor and thrust him into the void they let Melkor's man allies go into the east and corrupt all of the neutral men. But anyway, I think instead bringing the elves to Valinor they could have encouraged them to live along the coasts of Beleriand and visit them often to make sure that when Melkor was set free he wouldn't corrupt them. This way Elves and Valar could have worked together to make ME better, and prepare it for the coming of Men. |
12-01-2004, 09:22 AM | #45 | ||
Hobbit
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
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12-01-2004, 09:35 AM | #46 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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"If you wanna be a god, you better start actin' like it!"
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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12-01-2004, 09:44 AM | #47 |
Hobbit
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I've tried acting like one for ages, but I am still not one..
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
12-01-2004, 09:50 AM | #48 |
Elven Warrior
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Location: Birmingham, UK
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I think i'm a god
On a serious note: Perhaps the Valar failed slightly in their faith in Iluvatar. I haven't got the bok to hand but, in Morgoth's Ring, doesn't Iluvatar admonish Manwe because they failed to put enough faith in his (and their own) powers to ensure that whatever happended, Iluvatar would not let Melkor's destructive nature destroy His habitation for His Children?
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12-01-2004, 10:10 AM | #49 |
Hobbit
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Yes, I think it is in Laws and Customs among the Eldar. I don't have the book handy at the moment either, or I could give you the right quote.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
12-01-2004, 12:03 PM | #50 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Where does Iluvatar's culpability come in to play in all this? Only he was responsible for the creation and time of awakening of the Firstborn. Perhaps had he and the Valar taken care of business before their awakening, ME would have been a suitable dwelling and the Valar would have had no need to fear for the Elves and their safety and therefore there would have been no need to invite them to Valinor. Perhaps Iluvatar's timing on their awakening was bad. They were born into too many already existing messes that the Powers should have cleaned up before they awoke.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-01-2004, 12:29 PM | #51 | |
Elven Warrior
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Iluvatar brings into being the results of the Music. He then empowers the Valar to prepare and govern Arda in readiness for the Children. He does not directly play a part in the world until the drowning of Numenor (in the physical sense), if I recall. Hence, it is upto the Valar, not Iluvatar himself to "take care of business". Also, many ages pass between the making of the world, its fashioning and the strifes between Melkor and the other Valar (throwing down of the lamps, moving from Almaren etc etc, not to mention all the "quiet" periods. So how could it be bad timing? The Valar should have made war upon Melkor sooner (so says Iluvatar) and they shouldn't have brought them to Valinor: as Iluvatar had intended for them to live in the lands of their awakening. A few times in the Sil we have hints that the Valar anticipate the awakening of the Elves, and yet they still delay. How could Iluvatar be culpable for that? The Valar not only wanted to protect the Elves, they wanted to "enjoy" their company. The fact that Melkor had been captured should have also provided the Valar the impetus to provide some sort of protection for the elves living in the lands of their birth. BTW, Iluvatar's culpability could infer too broad a context. It'll probably involve theological dicussions of the origins of evil etc etc!
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12-01-2004, 04:25 PM | #52 | |||||
Queen of Nargothrond
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From the Silmarillion, Ainulindale, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977: Quote:
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From Ainulindale: Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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