03-22-2004, 11:06 AM | #41 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
good point sgh... i remember from reading lost tales that jrrt originally had a more segmented version of the afterlife... with the evil going to melkor, the good spirits (even of men) brought back in valinor, and the rest ending up in a kind of limbo
later accounts seemed to have dropped this entirely... one would have to assume that all the spirits of elves and men ended up in the same place, irregardless of how they lived their life eru, who only very rarely interfered in the course of arda, seems to have never been interested in passing any kind of judgement one way or another in the way that the christian god does
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-22-2004, 01:39 PM | #42 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-23-2004, 12:34 PM | #43 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
|
|
03-23-2004, 12:39 PM | #44 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
03-23-2004, 02:25 PM | #45 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
03-23-2004, 06:10 PM | #46 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Re: Ilúvatar good & evil
I finally have a bit of time to post here - I've been thinking about the posts, but haven't had time to put my thoughts down until now. From Ruinel's opening post:
Quote:
I'm glad Tolkien put in the story of Aule and his rebellion, and how Aule's heart reacted so differently than Melkor's. Iluvatar said to Aule: "Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? ..." (which is the classic response of the Christian God to sin - bringing up the wrong action for discussion in hope that the person will repent - like in the Garden of Eden, where God says "where are you?" when Adam and Eve hid themselves after their sin. It's not like God couldn't find them! It's like when I see my younger ones doing something wrong, and I can just say their name in a questioning way, and see which way they start to deal with it - either denial or acknowledgement ...) Then when Aule is done making the Dwarves and was instructing them in speech, Iluvatar spoke to him, and Aule was silent - a pretty good indicator that he knew he did something wrong. Then in answer to Iluvatar's questions above, Aule does NOT deny what was said, and even acknowledges error : "And in my impatience I have fallen into folly". A big difference from Melkor's response. Aule also goes on to say : "Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father." I love this - total honesty with Iluvatar, with an underlying heart of honest questioning - this is so different from Melkor's defiant actions in answer to Iluvatar. Aule chooses to resume his position of a created being under the rightful and loving authority of Iluvatar, while Melkor continues to try to make himself equal to Iluvatar - a vain task, and a terribly wrong one. I see people say that both Satan and Melkor really didn't do anything wrong, they were just trying to express themselves. Yet if this is so, then why was Melkor "filled with shame" at Iluvatar's rebuke? To me, their error seems the same - they wanted to BE God - and wanting to be something that is against your very created being is wrong - a crime against nature, I guess, is one thing it could be called. This is one of the areas where the fact that there is NO complete analogy to the relationship between God and humans is unfortunate - comparing it to a parent and child is good for many purposes, but it breaks down in the end in that the child will grow up and become, RIGHTFULLY, a peer to the parent. Yet a human will never be a peer to God - and there is nothing wrong with this; in fact, it is our glory and our joy and our freedom. Just some opening musings ...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-23-2004 at 06:16 PM. |
|
03-24-2004, 11:01 AM | #47 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Re: Re: Ilúvatar good & evil
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
03-24-2004, 01:02 PM | #48 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
But if the creator has created everything in existence, how can a creation "out-do" that? If the creator has existed before the creation, how can the creation "out-do" that? It's not a matter of the creator trying to repress the creation, it's a simple matter of fact. And the creations are fully glorious in their own right. I don't see it as having to "accept a lesser position". The position of creator is not up for grabs on a cosmic "Job Openings" bulletin board , nor can it ever be, by the very nature of things. It is no shame to be a step below God.
Also, if we were all competing for God's position, I think THAT would be the source of "self-doubt, shame and ultimately, the evil". That's pretty much what most people do here in the world, anyway (compete for God's position, or compete to be better than others) whereas God tells us that we are inherently of great worth.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-24-2004, 01:09 PM | #49 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Re: Ilúvatar good & evil
Quote:
I think the calling to Elbereth and things like that reflect Tolkien's Catholic background and the intercession of the saints. And what we do read about Eru shows a clear understanding of how He is set apart above the Ainur. And re "back seat" - can't find the quote now, but someone else mentioned it too - that it's a "pre-Christian" world. We see Eru "working" through the knowledge that people have in their hearts of what is good and evil, I suppose, just like in the time before Abraham. Only starting in Abraham's time, which is quite a few years after the LOTR timeframe, do we see God directly jumping in.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-24-2004, 01:10 PM | #50 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-24-2004, 01:17 PM | #51 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||||
03-24-2004, 01:20 PM | #52 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-24-2004, 01:26 PM | #53 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Any being with free will has the "capacity" to do either good or evil, by the very definition of free will. I don't think there was inclination involved; or if there was, the inclination was naturally towards good (defined as the will of Iluvatar, which is good), and it was actually a bit of "work" on Melkor's part to overcome the propensity towards good and to choose to do evil.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-24-2004, 01:37 PM | #54 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
does the biblical genesis story have god give a reason to adam on why he should not eat the apple... or is it just understood that since it is the word of god it should be obeyed?
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
03-24-2004, 05:23 PM | #55 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
You know the tree by its fruits, as the proverb says. And then in Iluvatar's first (recorded) verbal rebuke of Melkor, he does NOT banish or annihilate Melkor, but instead states the truth - that Melkor is mightiest among the Ainur, but that Iluvatar is above all. Just like in Aule's case. But Melkor was filled with shame, similar to Aule, but where Aule turned to Iluvatar, Melkor turned away with "secret anger". BIG difference in the reaction. Then Iluvatar speaks with the Ainur at great length, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that he attempted reconciliation with Melkor again. I think the very fact that Iluvatar didn't just annihilate Melkor at this point shows that Iluvatar hoped for his redemption. Also that later on, Manwe hoped for his redemption, and Manwe was closest to the heart of Iluvatar, IIRC.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
03-24-2004, 05:32 PM | #56 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
It seems like a simple thing, but at that point, Adam and Eve didn't even have a tendency towards disobedience. Think of it - all paradise, with only one restriction; and with a right heart, the obeying of that restriction is also a joy and a way of giving a gift back to God, their creator and the one that loves them ... can you remember times when you weren't supposed to do something that you rather wanted to do, and you successfully didn't do it, and the joy you had when you reported to your parents or friends that you didn't do it, and how they rejoiced with you? It's kind of hard to express, but I hope you can see at least a shadow of what I mean.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-24-2004, 05:36 PM | #57 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-24-2004, 05:54 PM | #58 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
interesting... i guess i just don't quite envision a creator in the same way you, and maybe tolkien, does... i'd imagine a bit more give and take and responsibility for the outcome of all of his creations... the easy ones that took the right path, as well as the hard ones that needed a lot more direction
but it is not the first, or the last , time we'll be on opposite sides of this issue
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-24-2004, 06:14 PM | #59 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
As long as we can keep meeting in the middle for coffee and a chat, that's ok
and as far as responsibility, as far as the Christian God, He took full responsibility for the giving of free will to mankind - that's what the cross is all about.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-25-2004, 06:20 AM | #60 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
Just kidding of course. But I'm not sure which post you're referring to. No I don't think his intentions were evil to begin with, no more than Aule's intentions were evil. They both wanted to create things of their own, they were both impatient, they were both following their desires but without recognising their limits. And even if Melkor did try to increase his own glory by altering the Great Music, can that be called evil? I don't think so, not unless the intention is to bring forth something bad, and there's no indication that that's what Melkor had in mind at this point. Also, because he was seeking the Imperishable Flame, Melkor had been on his own most of the time and was perhaps not present when Iluvatar in the very beginning (not for The Great Music) propounded to the other Ainur his themes of music. And so Melkor "had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren." Brownjenkins, R*an, Iluvatar did instruct the Ainur, but I think Melkor missed it! However I do agree that the reactions from those two Ainur to Iluvatar's waving finger was totally different. But then again, I also think that it was easier for Aule to repent, because he did not have the desire for mastery over his creations as had Melkor. A desire which was a part of how Iluvatar had created him in the first place! I think when Iluvatar had rebuked Melkor for his dischord in the Music, and Melkor saw that he was unable to fulfil his desires, it was then when he took his first step towards evil. He was "filled with shame, of which came secret anger." Unfortunately he chose to give in to his anger more than to his shame.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 03-25-2004 at 06:30 AM. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Religion and Individualism | Beren3000 | General Messages | 311 | 04-17-2012 10:07 PM |
Philosophy | Noble Elf Lord | General Messages | 150 | 01-25-2011 09:43 PM |
Were the Valar “demoted” at the end of the Second Age? | CAB | The Silmarillion | 43 | 05-14-2006 11:37 AM |
Theological Opinions | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 992 | 02-10-2006 04:15 PM |
The nature of Prophecy in Middle-earth | bmilder | Lord of the Rings Books | 23 | 06-16-2000 04:10 AM |