01-12-2003, 06:31 PM | #41 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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One for the Master Debater
Okay then. How do you respond to the criticism that Jackson is simply unable to tell a story?
Several people have made this point on other threads, but not been answered. The main problem is that he totally sacrifices character development for plot, cutting too quickly between scenes and not giving the actors time to shine. Then he totally fails to convey the plot. The bits he did lift from the book were usually the wrong bits; "classic" lines to buy off the afficionados but which had no relevance to the story and just confused things. Good example was the 20-second clip of Saruman recruiting the Dunlendings. Basically, I think Jackson is unable to tell a story properly, which might make him the God of Crap Stories, but not much else. Don't get me wrong: I think the films are a tremendous achievement, but I think it's in spite of Jackson's direction, not because of it. cheers d. |
01-12-2003, 06:37 PM | #42 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Quote:
Edit: Yep it did..........my sincerest apologies BB........... 'tis a shame this thread isn't entitled "PJ is the new Messiah"...at least then we'd be justified in nailing him to a plank. Last edited by Coney : 01-12-2003 at 06:42 PM. |
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01-12-2003, 07:00 PM | #43 | |
Elven Warrior
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Re: One for the Master Debater
Quote:
~ Celebréiel
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01-12-2003, 07:02 PM | #44 |
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Celebréiel, I completely agree. That post was very well put.
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01-12-2003, 07:05 PM | #45 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I have a problem with these threads because I don't really know what Peter Jackson was thinking. I love the books and the movies. Of the two, I prefer the books, they offer so much more. BUT, I really enjoy the movies, they add a whole new dimension of Tolkien enjoyment via the things that were done right, which is an incredibly long list. I am glad these movies were made. I am not above "cheap thrills" (heck no, I like em! ) and will enjoy PJ's movie version of LoTR for many years. I don't really know if Peter Jackson said "Screw the book, I'm making some money here"....Or worked his butt off doing the best he could for ever and a day yet still couldn't bring off a 100% totally correct adaptation of an incredible complex story(s). I get a headache when I try to imagine making LoTR the movie.
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01-12-2003, 07:41 PM | #46 |
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I wonder if PJ referred to the animated versions as he made the films...
Probably not, but interesting to think about.
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01-12-2003, 08:36 PM | #47 | |
Elven Warrior
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Re: One for the Master Debater
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01-12-2003, 08:57 PM | #48 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: One for the Master Debater
Quote:
IMHO, Jackson's Gandalf, Aragorn, Frodo, Sam, Legolas, and Boromir are some of the most amazing characters ever seen on film and the others aren't far behind. |
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01-12-2003, 11:05 PM | #49 | |
Long lost mooter
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Quote:
But the fact that Bakshi's version of LotR was the first taste of Tolkien PJ had may account for some of the "bad" changes he made -- it kind of shows where he was coming from, as opposed to being someone who would try to stay as close to the book as possible while still making a workable film. |
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01-13-2003, 12:01 AM | #50 |
Elven Warrior
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Isn't the scene in Fellowship of the Nazgul repeadtedly stabbing straight down into the hobbits' beds also taken from the Bakshi cartoons? It's been awhile since I saw it, but I could have sworn I'd seen that done before, and I know it isn't in the book.
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01-13-2003, 12:05 AM | #51 |
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Didn't Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh write most of the script? Yes, Peter Jackson had some input, but I was under the impression Philippa and Fran wrote the script and Peter shot it. Philippa was cast as scriptwriter because of her knowledge of The Lord of the Rings. So you have to criticize (or praise) them as well. I think the crew have done a wonderful job of bringing Middle-earth to life. But some of the changes the scriptwriters make don’t make sense. These have been described in other threads, so I won’t repeat them here.
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01-13-2003, 12:27 AM | #52 |
Long lost mooter
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This is getting a little OT, but I thought it was funny in the dvd when Phillipa is talking about them writing the script, and she describes how she and (I guess) Fran would write a part and then just write [they fight], knowing Peter will take care of doing that part, and Peter would write a scene and then just write [they kiss], leaving that part up to the women. So I think PJ did truly co-write the script, too.
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01-13-2003, 12:57 AM | #53 | |
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01-13-2003, 01:12 AM | #54 | |
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Dunedain: there's a really good reason why everyone is not taking BB seriously. His rep as a trouble maker precedes him. Check out this thread for more details. He pretends to be Mr. Innocent, but we all know better.
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01-13-2003, 08:14 AM | #55 | ||
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Re: Re: One for the Master Debater
Quote:
I'm not trashing the film here; I think they did Frodo/Gollum really well, for example, and I love the movies overall. If anything, there needed to be more pruning of content to allow more space for development. However, I don't think it's possible to argue that the film successfully portrays the strategic aspects of the book (the bluffing game they play with Sauron). This is the essential plot which makes sense of everything else that's going on. The things they replaced it with (e.g. Frodo waving the ring at a Nazgul in Osgiliath) were clumsy, and they only get away with it because no-one knows what's going on anyway so one more inexplicable action piece isn't going to make any difference. Quote:
BTW, I think I joined Entmoot partly because of the debates which BB initiated under the "Jackson has improved Tolkein thread". It doesn't bother me if things get heated along the way and I don't think we should try to censor it in any way (as long as the language stays moderate). Given there's a new film out, I welcome the chance to revisit the question of how the films enhance (or otherwise) the overall vision of the epic. cheers d. Last edited by Dunadan : 01-13-2003 at 08:17 AM. |
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01-13-2003, 09:29 AM | #56 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Re: Re: One for the Master Debater
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01-13-2003, 09:43 AM | #57 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Re: Re: Re: Re: One for the Master Debater
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It may well be that to convey this, the film makers would have to make more changes to the text, not less. Who knows. However, to my mind, TTT is the book which transforms the adventure story into one of strategy and intrigue; TTT the film simply did not achieve this. |
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01-13-2003, 10:00 AM | #58 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One for the Master Debater
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01-13-2003, 10:40 AM | #59 | |
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01-13-2003, 02:02 PM | #60 | |
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I suggest a human sacrifice. (hint hint) Don't use the sheep or BoP will be angered. *insert more smiting here*
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