03-18-2005, 03:47 AM | #41 |
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But Arty, you misunderstand what I'm saying. WHATEVER the change is, of course it affects those that it's about!
Legal age changes affect those that are under legal age. Degree of relatedness changes affect those who are related. and ... gender of partner changes affect those who are of the same gender as the desired partner. Arty, if people decided many years from now that heterosexual marriage was harmful, then let 'em gather signatures and put it on a ballot and vote to ban it! And then if people think heterosexual marriage should be allowed again, then let 'em gather signatures and put it on a ballot and vote on it! People should vote for whatever marriage descriptions they think are good for society, don't you think?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-18-2005 at 03:49 AM. |
03-18-2005, 04:34 AM | #42 |
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I don't question your right to vote for whatever issue is on a ballot. I do however question the moral behind putting an issue like homosexual marriage up on a ballot. See?
I agree with those who say that not everything should be voted on.
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03-18-2005, 04:44 AM | #43 |
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Rian, I don't think you've really addressed the issue that Jonathan and I raised as to why it's appropriate to have a referendum.
First, though, I'd like to apologise for mentioning the H-word. Adolf gets cited as an example too often. In this case, my purpose was to draw a parallel in that, IMO, an unwillingness to acknowledge gay marriage is often (not always, and not in your case, I'm sure, but often nonetheless) based on prejudice. However, it's an inflammatory analogy and I'll try not to use it again. The fact is that there are lots of gay people, and lots of them have long-term relationships. If we decide that they deserve the same rights as anyone else, then they have the right to legal recognition of their relationship. (I don't think we need to go over all the different reasons why that status matters to people.) Of course, some people think they don't deserve the same rights as anyone else, and we've heard lots and lots from that particular camp in various other threads. Again, I don't think we need to revisit that, particularly given that there are quite a number of GLB people on this forum. However, some people argue that they CAN have this equal status, as long as they don't call it "marriage". But what is the point in that? Why just apply a different label if, for all intents and purposes, it's the same thing? The only purpose I can see is setting a group of people apart from the majority, which, IMO, is the heart of prejudice. Why IS that? I would like to understand a little better why some people feel the need to exclude gays from the terminology. It seems bizarre to have a referendum on a dictionary definition! Maybe we can have one for what constitutes prejudice... EDIT: * waves to Arty in cross-posting * Last edited by The Gaffer : 03-18-2005 at 04:47 AM. |
03-18-2005, 11:29 AM | #44 | |
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03-18-2005, 12:18 PM | #45 | ||
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That is not the sole purpose of marriage though; as has been said earlier, what about couples who are infertile or who don't want children?
Either way it doesn't matter, since a gay couple is as capable of raising children as a straight couple. Of course they would have to adopt the children, but I think it goes without saying that a married couple can adopt children. However, since you already said you support civil unions with adoption rights, I'm not sure what you mean by marriage. People use the word in a lot of ways, and there seems to be three legal meanings of it in New Jersey at least. I agree with you 100% about civil unions anyway. But what do you mean by marriage in this context? If it's the government-sanctioned marriage licence, what's a civil union then?
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03-18-2005, 01:07 PM | #46 | |
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03-18-2005, 01:21 PM | #47 | ||||
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03-18-2005, 01:28 PM | #48 | ||
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Here is the differnce between Civil Unions and Marriage....
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BTW - the domestic partnership in NJ is for people living together - and generally benfits retirees who share living expenses. Quote:
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03-18-2005, 02:49 PM | #49 | |
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03-18-2005, 04:11 PM | #50 | ||
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No where in any definition of marriage that I am looking at does it say "established for a couple to raise children"???
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Here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09693a.htm It talks, with a religious bias, on the subject of marriage being mostly based on the principles of monogamy: Quote:
At any rate here in Canada we will almost certainly pass gay marriage laws all accross Canada, however, Churches do not have to perform ceremonies if is against their beleifs... all that monogamis gay people were asking for was the same treatment as everyone else. It's incredibly hard to argue against this unless you are VERY conservative, or VERY religious. Last edited by LickTheEnvelope : 03-18-2005 at 04:13 PM. |
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03-18-2005, 06:48 PM | #51 | |
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There are more reasons for adoption than sterility. But, onto my real point. Marriage does, hopefully assist in the creation of a stable environment to raise children, but that is NOT it's main purpose. Why do so many people want to get married who don't want children, or are too old to have children? Or why do people get divorced instead of "sticking it out for the children?" Marriage is for the financial and social benefits. If it helps you to raise children, that's wonderful. A legally recognized relationship is more likely to be supported by family and friends, and it's also meant to be harder to get out of because of the responsibilities it entails. The history of marriage has been that it is not about love or raising children, but rather, transfer of property, and an eventual male heir to take care of that property. It's a rather selfish institution, but it served a purpose. Edit: From what I've read about Chinese marriage laws, they are about raising children, and protection of women and children's rights. That is, however, in reaction to marriage practices that traditionally gave no power to either women or children. Last edited by Embladyne : 03-18-2005 at 06:55 PM. |
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03-18-2005, 07:06 PM | #52 | |
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03-18-2005, 07:09 PM | #53 | |
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03-18-2005, 07:31 PM | #54 | ||
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Marriage was invented ages and ages ago though. There's no cause to legally enforce the reason for its invention in today's society. Social institutions such as marriage grow and change over time.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying about marriage and children. What if the couple knew, in advance of getting married, they they were incapable of having children? I will get my head around those posts on civil unions, marriage and different rights. Thanks for posting that. (I think I'm getting this thread confused with the marriage thread.)
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03-18-2005, 07:38 PM | #55 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-18-2005, 07:48 PM | #56 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-18-2005, 08:11 PM | #57 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-18-2005, 08:14 PM | #58 |
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i dont care what it is called, you can call it marriage, you can call it civil union, or you can call it a polka dot coloured elephant, so long as it is recognised as a partnership between two same sexed people, and is given the same status as that which occurs between man and woman.
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03-18-2005, 08:39 PM | #59 | |
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03-18-2005, 08:47 PM | #60 | |
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