04-12-2004, 02:04 PM | #41 | |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
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Desperate people will take desperate measures. I know of a family that contributes to and sometimes takes their disabled child to sites of purported miracles. The child has improved more by medical intervention, however. But the family is devout and is ever hopeful for a miracle. In my opinion, the child they have is a miracle just as she is.
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"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
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04-12-2004, 04:19 PM | #42 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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04-12-2004, 04:32 PM | #43 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I tend to think most TV-type healers are fakes. If you notice the types of healings in the Bible, they're all extremely visually obvious types of problems (leprosy, withered leg, blind) and the people were all well-known by the locals (IOW, not faked "set-ups"). The ones I see on TV are all the invisible types (cancers inside the body but not outwardly visible, people in wheelchairs but not with withered limbs that are visible, etc.)
However I do think that God still performs some miraculous healings today, but I also think the apostolic times were unique and for a special purpose, and won't be repeated. My Dad had a malignant skin cancer lesion that was miraculously healed. It was diagnosed by a doctor, and it ... just went away, after lots of prayer. The doctor had NO explanation for it - it should NOT have happened. However, I have a chronic illness that has NOT gone away after much prayer. God has chosen to not heal me at this time; instead, He has used it to teach me many things that I would not otherwise have learned had I continued to be entirely healthy. This can be seen in the Bible, too - Paul had a chronic condition that he asked God to remove, but God chose in His wisdom to let Paul keep that "thorn in the flesh", and taught him many deep things thru it. However, I will have no illness in eternity and illness in this life is a small price to pay for a good, altho unpleasant, teacher.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-12-2004, 05:03 PM | #44 | |
Her Infernal Majesty
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The way I see it, is that if there is a Christian god, he is still bitter about the Garden of Eden thing, so he lets his 'children' suffer, only occasionally healing the odd one to show his followers that he may still be there.
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"It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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04-12-2004, 05:17 PM | #45 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Can you see why God would allow me to have a chronic illness if it would produce wonderful works in my soul that would NOT have occurred otherwise? In the light of eternity, as I said, it is WELL worth it to have some pain in this life if by it my soul is perfected and made Christlike.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2004, 05:25 PM | #46 | ||
Her Infernal Majesty
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"It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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04-12-2004, 05:30 PM | #47 |
Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller
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If god has some overall ultimate plan, then it wouldn't matter if we prayed or not, if we were to be healed we would be and if we were to dfie or be sick for longer than we would be. You have to think in terms of the big picture. It's not just 'oh I'll do these people the favor and heal this person' or 'I don't feel like it today', it's whatever qworks out to his plan (assuming a christian perspective). Everything that happens effects the future and if god does have some master plan he will work it out as he wants it, regardless of whether we prayed for it or not.
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I love the fishes. Last edited by Sminty_Smeagol : 04-12-2004 at 05:33 PM. |
04-12-2004, 05:35 PM | #48 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Location: Reality
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one word: psychosomatic
i think the power of the human mind may be greater than many give it credit for
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-12-2004, 05:36 PM | #49 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yet God "invented" prayer and asks us to do it ... this leads one to wonder why, if in fact prayer will NOT make a difference ... perhaps prayer is not just the "vending machine" thing that it is sometimes thought to be ... Any thoughts?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2004, 05:40 PM | #50 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My own view of God is more along the lines of pre-knowledge, but NOT pre-ordaining things... that is, God KNOWS how each thing will come out, but He did not DECIDE each little thing... many of the details are determined by our own exercise of free will (regarding such things as our own salvation, things which He may allow to be affected by our prayers, other choices we make, etc) - but as I said before, God is not our waiter, we are His servants. In the case where I lost my friend, despite continual prayers for his healing - it would have been easy to fall into despair, and many indeed have turned away and 'blamed God' for such losses. However, I saw within myself the growth that had come as I turned to God in prayer... so I prayed for one particular purpose that I had in mind... but God still worked something else good from my prayers, even though He didn't answer according to MY will.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 04-12-2004 at 05:42 PM. |
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04-12-2004, 05:43 PM | #51 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2004, 07:40 PM | #52 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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However, I agreed with the rest of our post . Quote:
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Miracles are huge boosts for faith. They teach us lessons about God. Yes, if God didn't care for sickness he could use practical, scientific methods to see that it was healed every time he wanted it to be. However, both the sickness, the natural recovery, and the miraculous recovery have places in God's plan. Quote:
Healing is not just for practicality. God could use natural means to heal, if he just wanted people healed. But he has other plans and aspects of himself that he reveals through the action, which are to his glory and to the spiritual benefit of the creation. As RÃ*an said, sometimes the sickness or pain is used to the spiritual benefit of the creation. I'm not saying that that's the case all the time. God has a plan behind everything though, sickness, pain, death, and miraculous healing. You're very smart, Sminty_Smeagol. I really like how you consider these issues. Quote:
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04-12-2004, 07:55 PM | #53 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Gwaimir and I sometimes hold very lengthy email debates. One of those times, he said that he thought I was probably closer to Catholicism than to Protestantism, because we agreed on some things he was surprised at. I don't remember what, in particular, at this moment. I answered with several of my other beliefs, and he was forced to withdraw that remark. (Shrugs) Quote:
There strikes me as nothing about bopping on the head that is really out of wack with this list. |
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04-12-2004, 09:06 PM | #54 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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If we were just "material" then we woulndt be able to have a comprehension of the supernatural, because we would solely survive on material, and we wouldnt even think!! thinking is not possible without supernaturalism. sure, we'd have a brain, but it would only be used for figuring out material things. geez, I am so bad at explaining stuff...
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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04-12-2004, 09:28 PM | #55 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Teehee... I could parse words with you Lief, about which days are the ones being ordained, what 'ordained' may mean in that verse and further implications depending on just what one believes about how scripture was inspired. Let's just say I won't concede the point, but acknowledge the validity of alternative viewpoints on the matter of predestination. I'll get back to your email within a few days on particulars of my beliefs. Thank you very much for yours!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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04-12-2004, 11:21 PM | #56 | ||||
The Dude
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
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04-13-2004, 12:15 AM | #57 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-13-2004 at 12:17 AM. |
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04-13-2004, 12:16 AM | #58 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-13-2004, 03:23 AM | #59 | ||
Her Infernal Majesty
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Okay, I've just totaly lost my train of thought, I'll be back later. Might go and buy a Bible today....
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"It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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04-13-2004, 09:12 AM | #60 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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psychosomatic means that in some way you are bringing about the changes in yourself, or someone else is triggering you to bring about these changes... it does not attempt to explain how these changes actually happen, just that they are in some way "natural"... yet not understood... at least for now
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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