400 Held Hostage in Russian School

[Nerdanel]

too many lives..

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

There's no WE about (that is if we're still discussing the Russian's vs Chechian's behaviour).

It is the Russian Government which is the root cause of this conflict.

GW - I'd say you're partly right, but not entirely right. Russia certainly has dirty hands in their treatment of Chechnya... and I'm not totally sure why they didn't allow that area independence at the same time they allowed other former republics of the USSR to break off. In their actions though, they have indeed 'sowed destruction' and therefore 'reap the whirlwind'.

OTOH, the method of their response indicts the Chechens... at least these who would plot and carry out such an act. Besides, there were Arabs among the militants, as well as Chechens - and hints that there was al Queida funding involved. Russia has been concerned for some time that al Queida has gotten involved in Chechnya. That broadens the whole situation - because al Queida's objectives go far beyond simple independence for Chechnya.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The Russians may be out of order, but terrorism is terrorism. There are no excuses for what the Cheychans (sp.) did.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

It is the Russian Government which is the root cause of this conflict.

Don't even have the attitude of "well they deserved it" Those children and over 300 people did NOT deserve it. It was a barbaric attack pure and simple and I will not side with the terrorist NO MATTER what their cause is. Taking children hostage and innocent people is barbaric. Death toll is at 323 - over half are children and the death toll is still rising.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yep. Like I said:

A cause can be meaningful and just, but when terrorists resort to the kind of violence that means brutal killings of innocent people and children, I believe their cause is no longer just or valid because they mask their brutality with the true cause to justify their actions. So again, I do not sympathize with the cause of terrorists.

Now that it is pretty clear that al queida has a hand in this, it reinforces my stand even more.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Don't even have the attitude of "well they deserved it" Those children and over 300 people did NOT deserve it. It was a barbaric attack pure and simple and I will not side with the terrorist NO MATTER what their cause is. Taking children hostage and innocent people is barbaric. Death toll is at 323 - over half are children and the death toll is still rising.

Of course, I don't side with terrorists. People who use children as human shields are the scum of the Earth. BUT If the Russian Gvmt hadn't sent it's military into chechnya there would be no issue.

[Grey_Wolf]

Besides the Russian people have suffered under lousy governments for centuries so THEY are NOT at fault. THAT was what I was saying. IT IS the Russian GOVERNMENT which has caused this mess, NOT the people.

And punishing the Russian PEOPLE for something their GOVERNMENT has done is NOT acceptable.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If thats what these people are like then the Russian Government was right to employ Chechnya because I wouldn't want people like that to be able to rule a country.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Besides the Russian people have suffered under lousy governments for centuries so THEY are NOT at fault. THAT was what I was saying. IT IS the Russian GOVERNMENT which has caused this mess, NOT the people.

Hmmmm - sounds like the crap we heard under the breaths of many europeans during 9/11. "Well they really did deserve it" "They really did have it coming" etc. I don't buy it. I guess when france has terrorist attacks over the head scarf ban - which I'm sure it will, as I had said last year - then everyone can say that France deserved that.

And punishing the Russian PEOPLE for something their GOVERNMENT has done is NOT acceptable.

That would be like saying that if a state wanted to leave the US - that we should just let them. We faught a civil war to keep the union together. So I don't see why russia should just be expected to give Chechya their independence. Do you think that Britain should give Northern Ireland it's independence? Let's see - how long did the IRA fight and attack England?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Besides the Russian people have suffered under lousy governments for centuries so THEY are NOT at fault. THAT was what I was saying. IT IS the Russian GOVERNMENT which has caused this mess, NOT the people.

And punishing the Russian PEOPLE for something their GOVERNMENT has done is NOT acceptable.

So do you want the terrrist's to assasinate the Russian Government and if that had happened you wouldn't feel sympathetic if had happened to them. It's unjust and evil whether in their eyes they deserved it or not.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Hmmmm - sounds like the crap we heard under the breaths of many europeans during 9/11. "Well they really did deserve it" "They really did have it coming" etc. I don't buy it. I guess when france has terrorist attacks over the head scarf ban - which I'm sure it will, as I had said last year - then everyone can say that France deserved that.

That would be like saying that if a state wanted to leave the US - that we should just let them. We faught a civil war to keep the union together. So I don't see why russia should just be expected to give Chechya their independence. Do you think that Britain should give Northern Ireland it's independence? Let's see - how long did the IRA fight and attack England?

No, I don't think Britain will give up N Ireland any less than Russia (i e it's government) will give up Chechnya.

So. It will go on indefinitely. The policy of the Russian government will cause the Russian people a lot of endless grief.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

No, I don't think Britain will give up N Ireland any less than Russia (i e it's government) will give up Chechnya.

That isn't what I asked - I asked SHOULD they have given up Northern Ireland because of the actions of the IRA.

So. It will go on indefinitely. The policy of the Russian government will cause the Russian people a lot of endless grief.

Why is this the russian government's fault? They won't break up a part of their country. What happened if the western region wanted to break off - should they just let that happen? Should they let the St Petersburg area break off if they want to? Give me a reason why Chechnya should be free - other than that they want it. Because believe me - if Texas or California or any state wanted to just leave the Union - we would NOT let them. I'm using California particularly as an example because we won that terroritory in the war against Mexico.

[Hawklan]

I dont think throwing blame around is appropriate at this time, we all know the olsd Soviet and Russian governments have done some awful things in the past, but lets face it, who can hold their hand up and say that their leaders are not crooked, inept, self righteous and usually pretty stupid. Bush, Blair and Putin are a sad tired joke. As Michael Parkinson once said " Any person wanting to become a politician should be automatically barred from doing so ".
I have to say as well, I have never heard anything but sympathy for those murdered in the Twin Towers attrocity, certainly not "they deserved it ".

[jerseydevil]

I have to say as well, I have never heard anything but sympathy for those murdered in the Twin Towers attrocity, certainly not "they deserved it ".

There were many people who stated that. The most memorable was when Guiliani handed the Prince of Saudi Arabia his check back in the middle of a ceremony after the prince said "you had it coming actually". And maybe you haven't heard people from Europe say it - but I have heard them say it. Initially there was pretty much nothing but sympathy expressed out of Europe, then people would slowly come out and make statements of how we deserved it. Russia didn't deserve this anymore than we deserved 9/11.

[Grey_Wolf]

No country wants parts of it break away from the whole. Maybe I was wrong to blame the Russian government solely for Chechnyan situation.

It may have sounded like I was siding with the "baddies". It was NOT my intention.

[Hawklan]

you must know an awful lot of people in Europe. I try my best not to be overtly judgemental about different countries, I think that is the best policy all round. I dont actually know any Americans but I see and hear some on the mass media, I tend to hear more from / about the more famous / infamous sections of the country i.e. politicians, media stars and sportsmen and women - I dont class these as " average americans ". Im sure Americans are as diverse as any society you can mention, good and bad, as are Europeans.
the actual word european is a bit rediculous as we are not one encompassing super state, we want different things and we pull in different directions, there is quite a bit of animosity between the member states and the only reason most have joined together is financial. The Brits moan about the Germans and the French, the French and Germans moan about the Brits and the Dutch, everyone moans about the Balkan states, its a bit of a croc really.
That is just a long winded way of saying " dont judge a nation by what some stupid politician says ". Politicians dont represent us, the people, they never have and they never will.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think the Russian government can be blamed at all. If every one with a grudge against a country showed it like that then by now there would be no more people to take it out on.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Hawklan

you must know an awful lot of people in Europe. I try my best not to be overtly judgemental about different countries, I think that is the best policy all round. I dont actually know any Americans but I see and hear some on the mass media, I tend to hear more from / about the more famous / infamous sections of the country i.e. politicians, media stars and sportsmen and women - I dont class these as " average americans ". Im sure Americans are as diverse as any society you can mention, good and bad, as are Europeans.

We our - but many people in the world don't know that.
[edit]
Oh - and I'm not nearly as judgemental as many people may think on entmoot. But I will state things that I hear that come from other countries - just like many people like to talk and be judgemental of America. And I never said that it was all europeans who made such statements - I just said that I have heard europeans as well as others around the world make similar statements about the United States as Grey Wolf was making about Russia. That is a fact. You may not like the fact - but it doesn't mean that some people in Europe haven't made such statements regarding the attacks against us.

the actual word european is a bit rediculous as we are not one encompassing super state, we want different things and we pull in different directions, there is quite a bit of animosity between the member states and the only reason most have joined together is financial. The Brits moan about the Germans and the French, the French and Germans moan about the Brits and the Dutch, everyone moans about the Balkan states, its a bit of a croc really.

If you think it's any different here when people say "America" or the "United States" - then you really have no idea about the US at all. The United States is very much like the EU. The term European is no more ridiculous than people saying "Amerians are like such and such". But if you want,when talking about Europeans in general, I will declare all the different countries in Europe and the EU when I refer to Europeans - just please refer to all of our states when referring to Americans then. I'm a New Jerseyan first - an American second. I hope everyone on entmoot will now learn about all the different states - so they can narrow down their statements when talking about Americans. Just to help you out - NY and NJ literally hate each other and would be at war if it wasn't for the Constitution (instead we are constanly in court with each other and fight our wars there). California is completely different than Ohio or the east coast states. The south is extremely different than the north and in some areas we are still fighting the civil war.

Most of the outside world has NO understanding of the United States and how the states are basically individual countries under one constitution. Similar to the EU - the EU is moving in that direction. And with the expansion of the EU - it is very appropriate to say Europeans just as everyone refers to us as Americans under one umbrella.

That is just a long winded way of saying " dont judge a nation by what some stupid politician says ". Politicians dont represent us, the people, they never have and they never will.

I'm not talking about politicians saying it. I'm talking about citizens from various countries actually making these statements. For one thing - I watch French News FR2 everyday. I have heard NORMAL citizens from Britain say it, from France say it, from Germany say it, from Italy say it as well as some other European states. IN GENERAL though their is sympathy toward the attacks - however it does not mean that private citizens from Europe have not made statements to reporters stating how we deserved 9/11 or that we had it coming.

This is getting off topic and since I am not active on entmoot anymore - I don't wish to get into a conversation about this. Especially on this thead about the children. If you want to talk about this you can IM, e-mail or *cringe* PM.

The only reason I posted on this thread at all - was so I could let people know that their is an organization taking donations for the children if anyone is interested in that.

[Hawklan]

i really dont think this is the correct place for sarcasm, its a little bit sad dont you think ? I will terminate this discussion from my end as I feel the arguament is silly and there is a more important issue being discussed here
i.e. innocent children being massacred, and Im really not bothered what country they come from, I would feel the same if they were children from the USA , Russia or Iraq.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Hawklan

i really dont think this is the correct place for sarcasm, its a little bit sad dont you think ? I will terminate this discussion from my end as I feel the arguament is silly and there is a more important issue being discussed here
i.e. innocent children being massacred, and Im really not bothered what country they come from, I would feel the same if they were children from the USA , Russia or Iraq.

Hmmmm - I believe I already said that here...

This is getting off topic and since I am not active on entmoot anymore - I don't wish to get into a conversation about this. Especially on this thead about the children. If you want to talk about this you can IM, e-mail or *cringe* PM.

But since you accused me of being sarcastic - I would like to know where. No where was I sarcastic. You may not agree with what i said - but that doesn't mean that I stated it in an sarcastic way. As I said in my previous post- you can IM me, e-mail me, or PM me if you wish to continue this. But don't accuse me of being sarcastic and then say you don't want to discuss it.