03-02-2006, 03:54 AM | #41 | ||||
Elf Lord
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To avoid sounding overly sarcastic, I will merely point out that an awful lot of conflict free utopias have real difficulties with their economic systems... Quote:
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Though I do consider it a more elegant and preferable method than mere response... You can also point out the same thing about the human ability of foresight. It functions in much the same way as curiousity, allowing us to forsee future pain and danger, and thus avoid it... Quote:
I would ask a question though... Why do people "learn"? not how... but Why... Why do they even have that ability?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-02-2006, 03:59 AM | #42 |
Elf Lord
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Not to mention, that if we conquored space... other planets would eventually have nice bland lawns with streets paved of gold also...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 03-02-2006 at 04:00 AM. |
03-02-2006, 10:03 PM | #43 | ||
Elf Lord
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Would a world populated with Mother Teresas and Martin Luther King Juniors be a place of bland faces and immaculate lawns? People in the world who have most successfully rooted evil out of their lives are the most exciting and admirable people on the planet.
Edison and Newton also weren't driven forward in their studies by suffering, it's important to note. They studied for the heck of it. One of my sisters loves machinery and tinkering, and that is not because of pain. I also have a strong intellectual curiosity, and it is not the result of pain. We learn many important lessons from pain. However, pain is not the source of all learning, and it is a mistake to assume that communities on Earth with little evil are bland, boring places. Let me speak for my own household, a place where in my opinion, there is little evil. It is a fun place to live . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-02-2006, 10:19 PM | #44 |
of the House of Fëanor
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The world would not be poulated with Martin Luther King Juniors and Mother Teresas, simply because in a perfect world there would be no need for them to be what has made them famous. Utopia has no need for a civil revolution leader, or someone to feed the masses of hungry children, because they do not exist.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-03-2006, 01:02 AM | #45 |
Elven Maiden
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Also, remember to answer for the individual person too. Does being more pure lead to a happier life?
I`m gonna use a couple examples to illustrate what I`m trying to say. First, let`s say lust. Do you look at pornography? fantasize about explicit sexual situations? regularly have sex with someone who is not a husband/wife/long term boyfriend/girlfriend? Lustfull feelings are probably there for you to some extent. It`s natural. But I think humans have come to the point where we don`t have to worry too much about keeping the population up. So suppose someone decided to rid themselves of this feeling. Do you think, if sucessful, or even partially so, do you think it would make them happier in spirit or would their biological needs make them unsatisfied? Or, how about gluttony. I have to say, I am known for being a big lover of (a) meat and (b) chocolate. (And pizza, but that`s a whole `nother story.) Obviously there`s nothing wrong with eating to stay alive. And enjoying that food. But what about when you eat dessert after every meal like I tend to, or you eat a lot even when you`re not hungry? Do you think it`s possible to become more spiritually happy by eating nuts and fruit and tofu and stuff (my idea of healthy food, somehow, lol)? Maybe in this case it`s not even to say that eating too much is a sin, but is it like more pure to eat more in moderation and healthily? It`s hard classifying things into sinful or pure because it`s easy to be subjective. So I guess that`s why let`s use Dante as a guide. That`s what inspired me anyway. *eats Milky Ways. "May contain peanuts", hahaha* |
03-03-2006, 03:52 AM | #46 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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Do you hear that? |
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03-03-2006, 04:54 AM | #47 | |||
Elf Lord
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-03-2006, 05:00 AM | #48 | |
Elf Lord
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If yes, then perhaps you shouldn't do it. But if not doing it is going to cause you, or someone else, physical or spiritual harm, then you shouldn't "not" do it. Balance and moderation really are key principles, and it's one of the reasons why such things ARE subjective. Absolute moral standards always wind up harming someone...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-03-2006, 12:27 PM | #49 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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A tough part of the discussion though, this. I hate to argue with you on this subject, because I agree with SO MUCH of what you're saying, and you're helping me to see even more clearly why (IMO) God would have designed such a thing as pain into the world.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-03-2006, 12:35 PM | #50 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-04-2006, 12:45 AM | #51 |
of the House of Fëanor
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“Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are.”
~ Bertolt Brecht
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-04-2006, 06:46 AM | #52 | |||||
Elf Lord
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There WERE other extremist groups however who did harm people, and plotted worse. Should they have done those things that actually HARMED people? Even in a good cause? I would say no... Nor do I think that MLK had an absolute moral standard. If one followed the absolute moral standard outlined in Leviticus, slavery is legal and permissable. Obviously he had other beliefs, meaning that he was in fact using a different definition of morality than the "written word of god". Quote:
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I will however point out though that such a metaphysical realm is also predicated on the ETERNAL suffering of millions of people who were not "chosen". I certainly wouldn't want to be put in that postion. I have too highly a devoloped sense of guilt. I wouldn't be able to enjoy a minute of paradise. Quote:
You can take it several ways, the limited viewpoint... It isn't evil we just don't understand it... The "evil is an illusion" gambit...If it's neccesary, then how can it be evil? Or any other number of rationalizations. My personal opinion is that we live in an imperfect world, because if it were any other way we wouldn't be human. People who ascend to some metaphysical realm of perfection really aren't going to be human anymore. Why would they need curiosity? Leaning? What would they possibly need or want? They probably WOULD sit around all day singing praise to the Lord.... Not MY idea of heaven or a reward... I LIKE humanity, flaws and all... But then I'm sort of a humanist at heart... If there was ever a utopia, a perfect realm, it would HAVE to include some section, some slice or smidgen of conflict. Otherwise it wouldn't be a utopia for humans at all...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 03-04-2006 at 06:48 AM. |
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03-04-2006, 03:32 PM | #53 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Blackheart, you, Sir, are the bomb SO very glad to have you here at Entmoot! SO glad! I love, love love reading your posts.
The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven. ~ John Milton, Paradise Lost
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 03-04-2006 at 03:36 PM. |
03-04-2006, 07:59 PM | #54 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Huge philosophical posts by Lief Erickson!
RUN FOR THE ENTMOOT HILLS!!!
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
03-04-2006, 09:15 PM | #55 |
Elf Lord
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I'll respond to Blackheart the rest of the way eventually. Right now is not a good time for me, but I fully intend to get to it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-04-2006, 09:33 PM | #56 |
of the House of Fëanor
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He's intimidating, yes? I see you've met your match, dear Lief! He's a formidable arguing force around here; I am ecstatic that he's joined the Entmoot club and eagerly look forward to each & every one of his posts.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-04-2006, 09:37 PM | #57 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Oh - Lief, BTW, have you taken the Dante's Inferno test yet, and posted your results? If you have, I must've missed that post somewhere, & you could perhaps show us? and if you haven't, well, could you?
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-04-2006, 09:47 PM | #58 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Never mind, Monsieur Erikson, I found it - you're 8th level. My bad; I couldn't find your post until I looked back last page, where you called Inked on his pompous-sounding "the least I'd get would be purgatory - I'm a christian" remark. I forgot to tell you, I thought that was so cool when you responded "Then what does that make me;" NICE!! That was cool, Lief.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-05-2006, 04:24 AM | #59 | |||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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I'll just respond to the first part tonight. (Writes for a while) Never mind. I'm hooked now; I'll respond to it all tonight. Quote:
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I recently addressed the point of the Christians not obeying all the written forms of the law in a post in the "Religious Knowledge" thread in General Messages. We can continue that line of debate there, if you like . Quote:
As I said before, I believe evil is linked with death, and that when evil ceases to exist, death will cease to exist. Thus everyone in the world will have already experienced and learned the lessons pain has to teach (or that God wanted them to learn through pain). Then there will be new things to learn. There are many possible achievements and fields of study, many challenges for humanity without conflict with one another. I don't think conflict between one another or against nature is necessary. It teaches important lessons, but once those lessons are learned, conflict's purpose is done and there is no more need for it. People live together in beautiful harmony sometimes without much conflict. My parents, for example, work together wonderfully and a conflict between them is an extremely rare occurrence. Quote:
Do you honestly think that the violence inherent in humanity could possibly continue for millenia with our species continually gouging itself but never killing itself off completely? Millenia of peace and joy for all, falling into final blandness, is far better than a few centuries left of human hell, IMO. Blandness may be a disappointing and dismal ending, but at least we'd still be happy . If violence and evil remain though, we will experience far less happiness, great misery, and swift extinction. So there's a choice as to which end is preferrable. For myself, the answer to this seems obvious. Quote:
There are numerous passages that say there is eternal fire and there is a place that mentions eternal destruction. Jesus said that body and soul will be destroyed in hell, but he didn't say they'd be eternally tortured in hell. That the fire should be eternal is logical, for it is justice. That the people burning in the fire should be forever doesn't necessarily follow. Furthermore, Jesus did say very clearly in the New Testament that people would be punished in different amounts on Judgment Day, in proportion to their crimes. For some the judgment would be heavy and for some lighter. So there is clearly justice at work here, and the claim that there is eternal torture espoused in the Bible is tenuous. Quote:
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Curiosity would indeed be very useful for learning. That's its primary function in the world today. No big change there. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-05-2006, 04:30 AM | #60 |
Elf Lord
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You really got me on a roll there with that post, Lotesse, suggesting I was done for! The challenge stirred in me something fierce and I came back kicking!
Blackheart is fun to talk with indeed . As are you .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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