01-21-2005, 04:30 PM | #41 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So regardless of your own moral standings - morality is defined by society.
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01-21-2005, 04:33 PM | #42 |
avocatus diaboli
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I agree with you, JD. We cross-posted.
It seems to me that yes, morality is defined by society. But at the same time, it also seems that society is defined by morality, which makes for a rather unbreakable feedback loop.
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01-21-2005, 04:36 PM | #43 | |
The Intermittent One
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01-21-2005, 05:54 PM | #44 | |
Elf Lord
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01-21-2005, 06:19 PM | #45 |
"The Bomb"
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Individuality and relegion are not necassarily connnected. I believe humans are born with a conscience, that before we can even reason we can be saddened or frightened by hearing about a gruesome murder. Morality, I think, is only individual: how often we listen to that conscience, how much we develop on it, and how much we decide to continue obeying it. If our morality eventually turns out to agree directly with a religion, than good for that relegion; it's gained a zealot! But our development to that belief is all our own.
(So I think that humans are born with the instinct to do "'good," but that's no "herd instinct" IMO because it doesn't involve at all what other people define as good. Because we all have this same instict, it's understandable that we'd look like a mindless herd to people who haven't completely deveoloped their instinctive conscience. no offense) However, in my case, I was born into a Catholic family and I attend Catholic school. Juniors actually take a course called "Morality." I was told this year that I'm a mortal sinner doomed to hell because I never ever think about God's will. Personally, whenever I do a good deed, I don't do it with God in mind; I know that I'm doing something good that and that's just fine. I don't think I should be obligated to give any god credit for that knowlege of mine. But Christian morality defines my opinion here as a mortal sin, blasphemy. I know I'm not a blasphemer because I never ever think to compare myself to God. I think that accusation is too dissagreeable to accept and conform to mindlessly. So I'm proud of my individuality, free of religion. JD, I might be misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're seriously confusing morality with ethics. Laws set be society (like the speed limit, laws against murder, or laws against gay marriage) are influenced by political, economic, social, and moral interests of that society alike. But not all of these values are applicable to all laws. We can't steal in NJ because most citizens have declared it morally wrong, and because it disrupts the economy and community prosperity. EDIT: About how to interperet "thou shalt not kill," I am sure it was intended to address murder, but of course some people will interperet that more literally, because we are individuals. That's fine, not to mention impossible to argue. Ever debate with a creationalist? Remember Emplynx? I had something else to say, but I don't have time to remember what it was...
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01-21-2005, 06:27 PM | #46 | |
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(I've always said the translators were bad. I actually didn;'t notice till now.) |
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01-21-2005, 06:37 PM | #47 | |
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Thanks for the info, Rad! We now have it straight from the original language! Yay for Entmoot's global society!
I imagine when it was first translated "kill" in English, it was obvious that the word was applying to people, but then word meanings and society backgrounds shifted. If one bothers to look into context and stuff like that, it's extremely obvious it's talking about the murder of a person (IOW, killing for personal gain). There's even an exception for killing out of justifiable anger (like killing someone that harmed your wife) or killing by accident - there's a lesser penalty (just like in most countries today). And of couse the Israeli soldiers weren't killed for killing enemies in battle. Quote:
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01-21-2005, 06:38 PM | #48 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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YOu don't grow up in a vacuum with no influence from the outside - even as a child. Why do you think children who grow up in abusive families - even when they hate living in that situation - generally end up being abusers themselves? Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-21-2005 at 06:40 PM. |
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01-21-2005, 10:20 PM | #49 | |||
"The Bomb"
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It's a good thing we have Rad to shoot down our illigitamate basis for argument.
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Usually in a thread like this someone would have already brought up that "good" and "bad" have no operational definition in this context. Since a person's experiences since childhood are so influencial to their character development, I rarely think that a person can be labeled a "bad" person. If anything, they've been sadly but inevitably misguided. The only concept that I would give a bad "absolute value" to is spite. REbels without a cause, dissmissing reason puropsely to dwell in their own anger, knowing that they will annoy people and make them angry at them in turn, and ignoring that; I have no respect for people like this--they've rejected everything that makes them human as far as I'm concerned. And that's not just a characteristic of youth, because I'm avoiding it in my youth, and many people don't outgrow it. Those people are intolerable. Quote:
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And I left something else incomplete in my post that I'll have to reinsert here. Ignore it if you want, since I got my most relevant point across but this is really only important to me: I was told this year that I'm a mortal sinner doomed to hell because I never ever think about God's will. Personally, whenever I do a good deed, I don't do it with God in mind; I know that I'm doing something good that and that's just fine. I don't think I should be obligated to give any god credit for that knowlege of mine. [More importantly, I'm doing something good anyway, even totally oblivious to what God says I should do; isn't that an accomplishment, that I've learned to be good all by myself? I'm proud enough to know that I don't have to rely on a religion to know how to be a decent person. But Christianity calls that arrogance. I think it's introspection, and I don't think it's bad on my part if I'm aware of myself as a human being capable of reason.] But Christian morality defines my opinion here as a mortal sin, blasphemy. I know I'm not a blasphemer because I never ever think to compare myself to God. I think that accusation is too dissagreeable to accept and conform to mindlessly. So I'm proud of my individuality, free of religion.
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01-21-2005, 10:37 PM | #50 |
Elf Lord
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Interestingly, Plato in THE REPUBLIC reports Socrates grounding morality in the individual for the development of the soul and eschews personal aggrandizement as the antithesis of that development. cf Guyges and the Ring of Invisibility.
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01-21-2005, 10:49 PM | #51 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Having said that - in all my catholic school years I was nevwer told what you were told. YOU must be going to one of those strict catholic schools.
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01-22-2005, 12:24 AM | #52 | ||
"The Bomb"
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Ah, well, I should have expected a news article of some sort. But I was only using that as a possible but uneducated example because I'd mentioned abortion already. A better one might be Teddy Roosevelt and his corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, his pledge to protect Central American nations with the US Navy. Nobody else's opinion was involved there. And that brought us one step closer to a nice canal through Panama, a possibility I'd bet he was aware of, but society hadn't even imagined it.
About me being free from religion, I did grow up a Catholic with a Catholic education. I guess I could have worded that more clearly in context, but I meant that I ignore Catholic teachings now, and therefore don't feel bound by it. (That's not to say I don't pay attention in class or don't listen to Catholics.) Quote:
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Besides, don't even talk about Plato. His wisdom is nothing compared to mine.
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01-22-2005, 12:39 AM | #53 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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01-22-2005, 12:46 AM | #54 | |
"The Bomb"
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01-22-2005, 03:26 AM | #55 | ||||||
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01-22-2005, 03:35 AM | #56 | ||||
Fëanorophobic
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01-22-2005, 09:57 PM | #57 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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See - Janny - don't worry - you're safe.
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01-22-2005, 10:56 PM | #58 |
Elf Lord
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Socrates argues for the moral life as noted above. Glaucon says people only act morally for they fear punishment. The moral life is the life chosen by the weak, he says. Plato argues for the moral life because the imnmoral life corrupts the soul of the immoral leading to mental anguish, loss of friends, and emotional bankruptcy. The moral person prefers to lead a life of inner peace and integrity, a life guided by moral principles, not one of power and satisfaction of self-interest.
This series of arguments seems to parallel the one in the Republic. Tolkien has shown us these choices in LoTR in the persons of Gollum (corrupted by his choice of self-interest as the sole criterion of life), Boromir (the man yielded to self-will despite his bravery, strength, and virtue, but who redeems his selfish acts), and Galadriel (who offered the choice, chooses to refuse at great personal cost), and in Frodo (who ultimately unable to refuse the Ring is saved by prior moral choices in the form of grace). Gollum rejects morality of any sort for self. Boromir has a social morality and ethic. Galadriel has her experience of the Valar and self-will and the results to guide her. Frodo has a moral sense and a will to do the right. It is the existence of the overarching self-existent morality that makes sense of these individuals and choices. jerseydevil's argument that societies create morals is not true. Societies may choose to emphasize one or more aspects of the moral in their structure and treatment. Societies do not create their values. For example, the reference to the Episcopal Church and homosexuality is a case in point. The ECUSA has alleged a change in emphasis based on the allegations that justice trumps sexual morals of millenia. The Anglican Communion has said "no" and refer to the statement on human sexuality at Lambeth 1998. At the upcoming Primate's meeting in Dublin, it is likely that the Anglican Communion will split over the self-will of the ECUSA and the refusal of its bishops to submit to the 1998 statement and the Windsor Report 2004. The ECUSA assert a new emphasis; the Communion says, "no". If ECUSA persists, it may have to walk alone for its error by choosing self-will over common morality.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-22-2005, 10:58 PM | #59 | ||
Quasi Evil
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01-22-2005, 11:05 PM | #60 |
Elf Lord
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Well, IR, a famous man once said, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God alone." Thereby establishing the Source and Origin of Good, eternal existence, and His identity with it. Hardly a limited definition! That man was Jesus of Nazareth, bar-Joseph. You have heard of Him?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |