Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Tanoliel
I'm just saying I want this to be over quickly with minimum casualties on every side.

As would I and anyone in their right mind.

And would someone mind telling me why troops opened fire on a minivan full of civilian women and children and killed seven of them?

First off they didn't know their were woman and children in the van. And second they indicated for the van to stop - there was no reaction. They fired into the engine - still the van continued on. It left them little choice after the suicide bombings which Iraq has said they will do against our troops.

It was a tragedy - but the full investigation isn't out yet. The question I have - is why didn't they stop? The only answer I can think - is that they were afraid.

[Tanoliel]

Va bene, va bene...I'd have my fingers crossed if I believed in luck.

[azalea]

Apparently a female POW has been returned to the US force. I have no details, though.

[Elvellyn]

I need to watch the news more. I'm getting behind on my current events.

Anyway, my mom got the addresses of some Marines stationed in Iraq and I'm going to write letters to them.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It was a tragedy - but the full investigation isn't out yet. The question I have - is why didn't they stop? The only answer I can think - is that they were afraid.

I'm inclined to agree with that. Something tells me that if I was getting shot at, I'd make like a banana as well. Anyway, I heard that the warning shots weren't made in time. From the Washington Post (?) embedded journo.

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by azalea
Apparently a female POW has been returned to the US force. I have no details, though.

She was a supplies private I believe (19 years old if I'm not mistaken), she was captured at the start of the war with a supplies truck (I think - just regurgetating what I'd heard - must admit I wasn't paying much attention) and was freed from a hospital before being returned to the US forces.

Got this from MSN

April 2 — Ending a week of agony for one soldier’s family, U.S. forces in Iraq rescued a U.S. prisoner of war, U.S. Central Command said Wednesday morning. The rescued soldier, Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, of Palestine, W.Va., who was one of eight soldiers who vanished after their convoy was attacked south of Baghdad last month, had several broken bones but was stable and in good condition.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Baby-K
She was a supplies officer I believe (19 years old if I'm not mistaken), she was captured at the start of the war with a supplies truck (I think - just regurgetating what I'd heard - must admit I wasn't paying much attention) and was freed from a hospital before being returned to the US.

She was only found today, she isn't back in the US yet, they said she was under Coalition supervision for the time being, but will be getting her out soon enough...

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
She was only found today, she isn't back in the US yet, they said she was under Coalition supervision for the time being, but will be getting her out soon enough...

Yeah - I omitted the 'forces' - I have edited my post (at the same time you posted yours it seems)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
She was only found today, she isn't back in the US yet, they said she was under Coalition supervision for the time being, but will be getting her out soon enough...

Yeah - she has several gun shot wounds, two broken legs and a broken arm. But they said she's in good condition.

[Baby-K]

First off they didn't know their were woman and children in the van. And second they indicated for the van to stop - there was no reaction. They fired into the engine - still the van continued on. It left them little choice after the suicide bombings which Iraq has said they will do against our troops.

US officials support soldiers who fired on van of women and children

REUTERS - Washington

United States troops did not give a speeding vehicle enough warning before opening fire at an Iraqi checkpoint, killing seven women and children.
Writing in The Washington Post of Monday's tragic incident near Najaf, journalist William Branigin - who is travelling with US troops - quoted the US captain at the intersection as saying his forward platoon had failed to give the van ample notice that it would be shelled.
"You just (expletive) killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough", the newspaper quoted Captain Ronny Johnson of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division as saying after the shelling ended.

I agree that this was tragic, but no matter how much they investigate it they will come to the same conclusion - a warning shot was fired (albeit too late).

And yes, how were they to know it was women & children if the van was speeding? And how were they to know if they don't bother to make sure?

Little choice? Thought these were trained professionals who are supposed to be cool under fire and remain calm in performing their duties?

What if that car was loaded with bombs etc? Wouldn't the situation have been worse? (i.e taking out some US soldiers & civilians?)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K

I agree that this was tragic, but no matter how much they investigate it they will come to the same conclusion - a warning shot was fired (albeit too late).

You can't really say that - because you weren't there. Have you ever heard of the problem with trying to get people's views on a car accident? Everyone has their own version - and a lot of them do NOT match with what actually happens. They'll have to talk to everyone and figure out what happened.

Also - I'm not sure how much more of a warning someone is supposed to get - they shot into the engine and the person was still going right for the check point.

And yes, how wwere they to know it was women & children if the van was speeding? And how were they to know if they don't bother to make sure?

That's they wanted the van to STOP. maybe you don't know about the suicide bombers that killed four marines a couple of days ago. They're not waiting to be blown up again by a taxi. The four marines were called over by two guys in a taxi who claimed they needed help. Because they went over there to give a hand - they were blown up.

Little choice? Thought these were trained professionals who are supposed to be cool under fire and remain calm in performing their duties?

I wasn't there and neither were you. You can not say whether they were cool - or whether they felt they would be blown up like the other 4 marines.

What if that car was loaded with bombs etc? Wouldn't the situation have been worse? (i.e taking out some US soldiers & civilians?)

No - that's why they shot it - to stop the car before it GOT to the check point - in case it was loaded with bombs.

You really don't have much idea about what is going on - except little pieces here and there. Just enough to make you dangerous.

[Baby-K]

So I have to have been there to have an opinion (that matters in your eyes?) Ditto! Since you haven't been there your opinion frankly means jack sh*t.

Oh and btw - do not insult my intelligence, unlike certain people I do not have to sit here regurgetating other people's opinions. If I want a blow by blow account of what's going on I'll watch the news, to be honest I was operating under the assumption that it's our opinions & views of what's happening that would be discussed here, regardless of whether or not someone agreed, disagreed or couldn't give a rat's ass.

You really don't have much idea about what is going on - except little pieces here and there. Just enough to make you dangerous.

I do not need to prove to you what I do & do not know about the war. I also do not have to validate my opinions - it is obvious you do not agree (just as I do not agree with you), however I'm flattered to be considered dangerous..........

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
So I have to have been there to have an opinion (that matters in your eyes?) Ditto! Since you haven't been there your opinion frankly means jack sh*t.

I was replying to this...

but no matter how much they investigate it they will come to the same conclusion

But you seem to be too narrow minded to realise anything of what I say or what I am commenting on. I still state - you can NOT say whether the investigation will turn anything up - because you were not there. You can NOT say whether soldiers were cool under pressure or what they were feeling. You have no idea what went on there and neither do I at this point. Would I like to know - yes I would.

Oh and btw - do not insult my intelligence, unlike certain people I do not have to sit here regurgetating other people's opinions.

You didn't seem to hae a problem regurgitating the the opinions of the "human shields".

If I want a blow by blow account of what's going on I'll watch the news, to be honest I was operating under the assumption that it's our opinions & views of what's happening that would be discussed here, regardless of whether or not someone agreed, disagreed or couldn't give a rat's ass.

In order to have an educated opinion - you sort of have to know what's going on and have to know about the past which brought us to this point. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

I do not need to prove to you what I do & do not know about the war.

Actually - when your debating with someone - you do sort of have to prove you know something about the subject matter. So yeah - you do have to prove what you know about the war.

I also do not have to validate my opinions - it is obvious you do not agree (just as I do not agree with you), however I'm flattered to be considered dangerous..........

Actually (again) - when you're debating - you do have validate your opinions - otherwise they don't mean too much in terms of a debate. If you can't intelligently back up your opinions - then they don't mean anything. Empty opinions are nothing more than hot air if you have nothing to back them up with.

[Coney]

Whoa, who lit the fire!?

Got a full scale flame war in here

Ah, it's wonderful how discussing politics so often reflects how politicians act in the real-world

[Baby-K]

But you seem to be too narrow minded to realise anything of what I say or what I am commenting on. I still state - you can NOT say whether the investigation will turn anything up - because you were not there. You can NOT say whether soldiers were cool under pressure or what they were feeling. You have no idea what went on there and neither do I at this point. Would I like to know - yes I would.

I think we'd all like to know, however since I'm so narrow minded, please explain the outcome once the investigation has been completed because I guess US Defence Officials must be just as dense as me

(from the same source quoted before)
US defence officials described the incident as tragic and said they were investigating. But they insisted that their initial account - that said warning shots were fired - was correct. "I'm sure these soldiers are doing a good job" said one official. "It's very tragic, but they acted in an appropriate way"

Do you believe that they will retract that statement?

You didn't seem to hae a problem regurgitating the the opinions of the "human shields".

Actually I was saying that I'd rather believe what they said than some of the other reports we've been getting.

In order to have an educated opinion - you sort of have to know what's going on and have to know about the past which brought us to this point. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Actually - when your debating with someone - you do sort of have to prove you know something about the subject matter. So yeah - you do have to prove what you know about the war.

Actually (again) - when you're debating - you do have validate your opinions - otherwise they don't mean too much in terms of a debate. If you can't intelligently back up your opinions - then they don't mean anything. Empty opinions are nothing more than hot air if you have nothing to back them up with.

Another trademark of debate (at least where I'm from) is that you should be open minded enough to at least listen to someone's opinion without insulting them. But hey that may only be in my little '3rd world' corner of the world where respect for individuals seem to be overrated.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
I think we'd all like to know, however since I'm so narrow minded, please explain the outcome once the investigation has been completed because I guess US Defence Officials must be just as dense as me

Oh - I will. Although I don't know why your think that US DefenSe Officials are as dense as you though.

Do you believe that they will retract that statement?

Well considering the fact that we have before.

Actually I was saying that I'd rather believe what they said than some of the other reports we've been getting.

Why - because they support ESTABLISHED views?

Another trademark of debate (at least where I'm from) is that you should be open minded enough to at least listen to someone's opinion without insulting them. But hey that may only be in my little '3rd world' corner of the world where respect for individuals seem to be overrated.

I suggest you take a good look at your posts before you lecture me on respect and open mindedness.

[Baby-K]

Oh - I will. Although I don't know why your think that US DefenSe Officials are as dense as you though.

Please be sure to include some pictures. I could cite a million reasons why I think they're dense, but that would just give you the opportunity to have a little "I love Bush blah blah" ceremony and to be honest I'm not interested in further enlarging that bubble you seem to live in.

Well considering the fact that we have before.

They've retracted that statement before? So they must have know the guy was talking sh*te before he even opened his mouth

Why - because they support ESTABLISHED views?

Exactly - finally something you do understand

I suggest you take a good look at your posts before you lecture me on respect and open mindedness.

It was a statement not a lecture. I'd be happy to explain the English language to you if you desire.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Please be sure to include some pictures. I could cite a million reasons why I think they're dense, but that would just give you the opportunity to have a little "I love Bush blah blah" ceremony and to be honest I'm not interested in further enlarging that bubble you seem to live in.

No - you would much rather live in your rose colored world.

They've retracted that statement before? So they must have know the guy was talking sh*te before he even opened his mouth

Are you REALLY this dense? I meant we have retracted statements before when we have found out we were wrong. I was not referring to that particular statement. I guess I really have to spell things out for you to understand.

Exactly - finally something you do understand

Well if you only believe things that support your established view - I guess you've confirmed the fact that you really are narrow minded.

It was a statement not a lecture. I'd be happy to explain the English language to you if you desire.

Seemed more like a lecture. I guess maybe as you say - it's all in the eyes of the beholder.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Are you REALLY this dense?

JD: it's comments like these that's gonna get your beloved thread closed. Is it even possible for you to debate someone with an opposing opinion without getting personal?

[Coney]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
JD: it's comments like these that's gonna get your beloved thread closed. Is it even possible for you to debate someone with an opposing opinion without getting personal?

He did the same in the Iraq thread I thought you enjoyed this kinda discussion JD?.......mebbe yer just taking it a bit too personal?