06-30-2003, 08:43 AM | #561 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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08-15-2005, 07:51 PM | #562 |
of the House of Fëanor
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I thought I'd give this thread a budge, because it's fascinating, and it is not solely regulated to discussions on modern christianity. I'd like to hear what other mooters might have to say about gnosticism and the knights templar, and the cathars. These are subjects in which I have much interest, and they're fun to discuss. I still have a long way to go to learn more about the Cathars and the Gnostic gospels and stuff like that, but perhaps some of my fellow mooters can volunteer some info.
I know! I'll start by stating something that'll get a lot of people's backs up - I am under the impression that Mary Magdalene was in fact Jesus's girlfriend, and his favourite disciple, and that the catholic church put immense enery and effort in concealing this fact from its "constituents". Anybody have any thoughts on this one?
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08-15-2005, 09:23 PM | #563 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-15-2005 at 09:30 PM. |
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08-15-2005, 09:42 PM | #564 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Ahh, and I will say, "what makes you think that the catholic church DIDN"T do that?
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08-15-2005, 10:49 PM | #565 |
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You give an assumption of truth to a conspiracy theory?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-15-2005, 11:25 PM | #566 | |
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08-16-2005, 12:36 AM | #567 |
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I know of no Christian scholar or historian that espouses the view that Mary Magdalene was anything more to Jesus than friend, and I see no evidence to support that view in either the Bible or the writings of the Early Church Fathers. The only pieces of evidence for it that I've seen is a few fragmentary and occasionally conflicting passages from Gnostic writings, and even these have uncertain translation.
It's clear in this case that the burden of evidence rests not on the traditional view, but on the conflicting.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-16-2005, 12:55 AM | #568 |
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Do you know of any NON-christian scholar or historian that espouses the view that Mary Magdalene was anything more to Jesus than a friend? If not, than we probably shouldn't be debating one another at this point. Religious bias can throw any discussion completely out of whack.
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08-16-2005, 12:58 AM | #569 | |
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08-16-2005, 01:00 AM | #570 | |
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I think I was also way too kind as regards the Gnostic scriptures. There isn't even anything in them to indicate that Mary Magdalene was anything more to Jesus than a friend. They also were written well after the canonical scriptures. Anyway, I think it's clear where the burden of evidence lies in this discussion.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-16-2005, 01:17 AM | #571 |
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The burden of evidence as supplied by the catholic church, one of the planet's most powerful institutions, which it goes without saying stands to lose an awful lot if such a bit of information should be generally revealed. The roman catholic church has spent hundreds and hundreds of years diligently creating a believeable and enforcable (and enforced) dogma that insures its continued existence, prosperity and power. What does the church stand to GAIN by such information being easily researched, published and believed?
I am under the impression that the two of us going back and forth like this is heading in a pointless direction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have gained the impression that you are an extremely devout and perhaps slightly fanatical christian, and while I am very familiar with this sort of devotion, having been raised with religion crammed down my throat by shameless hypocrites and those who call themselves "christians", it feels like all we're gonna end up doing is tring to "outsmart" each other with an underlying veneer of emotional irrationality. All I wanted to do by bumping this thread was to awake the interest and input of others here who might have interesting material or comments to provide regarding stuff like mary magdalene's relationship to jesus and/or gnosticism or whatever. I sure didn't want to pave the way for innovative veiled invitations at potential insult, or initiate a contest to see who's opinon may be more "valid" based upon his or her personal religious ideas.
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08-16-2005, 01:36 AM | #572 | ||||
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In the discussion I am rather hoping will ensue between us, both of us will present evidence supporting our differing opinions and based upon what we believe most convincing, will make up our minds.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-16-2005, 01:38 AM | #573 |
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Posting to make my above post visible.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-16-2005, 02:09 AM | #574 | ||
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On the last assertion you make about how you don't get emotional, that's cool and I respect that, but I gotta tell you, I do get emotional, sometimes violently so; this is the premier reason I wish not to keep going on about this stuff like this with you, or with anyone.I didn't seek out an argument when I opened this bloody pandora's box, I just wanted to trade ideas. Besides, I do not have a neatly arranged, prepared stack of references and quotes to do battle with you with; I DON"T WANT A FREAKIN" IS IT TRUE/IS IT UNTRUE DISCUSSION WITH ANYONE!! And I'll say it again: I just wanted to hear the input and knowledge of others who are interested in the mary magdalene thing, NOT a debate as to whether or not it can be validated by christian scholars.
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08-16-2005, 02:12 AM | #575 | |
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08-16-2005, 03:22 AM | #576 | |
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The thing about the Catholic church having concealed and distorted facts sounds too much like fiction to me. I did enjoy reading the Da Vinci code but I tend not to believe in conspiracy theories of any kind Btw, nice to see this thread come back to life. Especially since my Pentecostal friends gave me a new good-looking bible yesterday. Maybe they still cling to the hope that my atheistic soul isn't lost forever
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08-16-2005, 03:34 AM | #577 | ||||
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I'm not particularly interested in the Mary Magdalene thing, actually. I don't find it plausible enough to be interesting . I am interested in "is it true/is it untrue", for debate or discussion are key ways I utilize in order to learn. I won't debate the issue with you, as you ask that I not. I will lay my notes down on the table though, before I go. Just "giving input" . The Bible In the scripture (dated to well before the Catholic Church), Mary is referred to as "Mary of Magdala". This indicates strongly that she was unmarried, for women at that time who were unmarried were referred to by their hometown, and those that were married were identified in connection with a son or husband. Now, the scripture is clear that Christ will be married. He will be married to the "Bride of Christ" which is the Church. Christians that are Born of God will enjoy the "Bridal Feast of the Lamb." This doctrine could not have become so strong as it is if Jesus actually had a flesh and blood wife. We have many scripture texts of the New Testament that come from well before Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church. They could not have been alterred without such changes having been recognized by modern methods of historical inquiry. Gnostic Writings Now let's take a look at Gnostic scripture. The Gnostics accepted five books of the Bible that we don't accept. They come at the very earliest a century after the cannonical scriptures. Gnostic belief has frequently fluctuated and changed over time. They never claimed to be historically accurate, and this is critical to understand. In their religious beliefs, they always considered spiritual truth higher and historical truth lower. They make no claims such as Luke did in the beginning of his Gospel, that they're trying to make an orderly or accurate account of events. According to John Glyndwr Harris' writing "Gnosticism", from the Sussex Academic Press, Quote:
Passages: 1) There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, and her sister, and Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion were each a Mary. 2) And the companion of the [. . .] Mary Magdalene. [. . .] her more than [. . .] the disciples, and [. . .] kiss her [. . .] on her [. . .] . The rest of the disciples [. . .]. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness." 3) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman. Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them. These passages were used in "The Da Vinci Code". Those parts of section 2 that are in brackets are parts that are illegible in the actual documents, and the meaning has to be guessed at. Refutations: 1) "Companion," in the Greek, could mean colleague, business associate, or friend. There was a specific Greek word for spouse, and it was not used here. 2) It is clearly written in the Gospel of Philip that a kiss indicated spiritual significance, and was not necessarily romantic. PLUS, if Jesus was married to her, his disciples wouldn't have been surprised by his loving her more than them. 3) This, from the fragmentary "Gospel of Mary" is undated and not even clearly referring to Mary Magdalene. It's likely that gnostic efforts to make Mary Magdalene appear special were a device used to support individual enlightenment over Church authority. Now let's take a look at another Gnostic scripture, and see from it whether or not the Gnostic Jesus might have been interested in marriage . . . Quote:
Sorry for teasing you, a little. I hope you're not angry. I won't debate. I probably won't look into this thread much more, because if I did, it would only be to debate. This is my available input for now. I hope it causes you to think again. Remember that modern scholarship and modern historians put very little credence in these guesses people like to make about Mary of Magdalene, and remember that the Gnostics themselves wrote much later than the cannonical scriptures, and without a serious goal at historical accuracy.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-16-2005 at 03:55 AM. |
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08-16-2005, 03:58 AM | #578 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-16-2005, 01:38 PM | #579 | |
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And hes always good for a healthy debate. Hes always straight forward and never resorts to trickery to try to win a point. If he isnt familiar with something he'll say so up front. My only complaint is he likes to make posts and end them with “well don’t bother replying as theres probably no point.” Frustrating!! We have good interaction (whatever happened to that thread about me you and rian arguing about everything from AIDS to genetics to monastic life and brewing beer?) Invariably, however, on many issues I have found that we tend to get into a tail chasing contest and only wind up dizzy and in the same place we started much to the chagrin of other board members who have to put up with our monster post after monster post. But its always interesting to have a direct debate with someone of such a vastly different perspective on the universe. For the most part, people who believe as he does tend to be useless in debate or incoherent at best because they are so far out in left field. He approaches things with some level of logic and intelligence, however, so you get to have a direct glimpse into a vastly different way of thinking that you cant have with many others too inarticulate to relate to. Alas, the gulf is still usually too broad on many issues and as I said we tend to get nowhere usually. Wouldn’t you say lief? But its still fun to debate. You hone your skills and knowledge in various areas if nothing else… Anyway... As far as Magdalene, I think its a bit dubious that she would be Jesus’ "girlfriend" per se but who knows how he truly viewed her emotionally (and what may have happened physically). Would be near impossible to tell. I think its clear from the Gnostic gospels that he held her in high esteem and he may have even seen her as the number one disciple on some levels which Peter may have had some issues with. But that after Jesus’ death the male disciples essentially closed her out as far as that kind of influence in the new Judeo-Christian cult that became christianity. But again stuff like this is so mired in the mists of ancient history that its probably impossible to ever know for sure without a time machine.
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08-16-2005, 02:10 PM | #580 | |||||||
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Another point is that the reliable scriptures, the Gospels and Epistles, mention nothing at all of any romance between Mary and Jesus. This is a significant omission in texts that are broadly accepted by scholars and historians as reliable.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-16-2005 at 02:17 PM. |
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