06-16-2006, 01:58 AM | #561 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, kids in bed and sitting here with a cuppa ...
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And the purpose of realizing one's sin is not to beat up on yourself, either! Not at all! The purpose, IMO, is to be free of the sins through God's power and grace in your life. IMO the message of Christianity is not "everyone's an awful sinner" - it's everyone's a sinner, yes, face reality! but part of reality is God's love for us, too, and that God took responsibility for creating us with free will by taking on the penalty of our inevitable sins onto himself through his son Jesus dying in our place, and that all this is because God loves us so tremendously and wants a relationship with us so much that he's willing to do everything - EVERYTHING! - except force us to be with him. Real love involves choice - God doesn't want robots to love and to love him, he wants people - real people. And to love God and be loved by him is the highest good for any person, and all other loves come to their full potential in this, too. So yes, IMO everyone in the world is a "sinner" - IOW, everyone in the world has done wrong, or failed to do what they know is right, at least once in their life. That's the theological meaning of the word, and that's how I was using it. I need to be more careful how I use that word, because really, it's one of those words whose current popular meaning does not match what it's theological meaning is. Sorry I had to get kinda long and technical on you, but I really didn't want you to think I was sitting around with a terrible scowl on my face, hating people and thinking they're awful sinners in a hating way, when I'm not at ALL - I love people tremendously! I think everyone is a sinner, yes, but I think you'd agree with me, given my definition, that everyone is, wouldn't you? We're all in the same boat, IMO. And we're all sinners in that sense, but the truth is that we're all also amazing, wonderful creations, loved by God so much that he payed a tremendous price to redeem us from our sins. I place a tremendous value on EVERY person, as I believe God does. It's just facing reality that all of us have sinned at least once in our lives and are therefore "sinners" in the theological sense.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-16-2006 at 02:04 AM. |
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06-16-2006, 02:15 AM | #562 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think there is an option 5, and that would be this: Anyone who can't see that is a specious argument is this: 5. Someone who hasn't understood Rian's all-too-often clumsy attempts to explain her thoughts on the subject. But I just looked at the clock, and the rest of the response to your post will have to wait because I promised BB I'd respond to his post tonight. And hopefully it will be a response to the rest of your post, too, God-help-me-I-need-it! ps ... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-16-2006 at 02:19 AM. |
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06-16-2006, 02:46 AM | #563 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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First off, personally I think sex with animals is very wrong. It looks like you do, too, but I'm surprised to see you say that it's "clearly against the word of God" - I guess I just know so many people that I can't keep everyone's beliefs straight. I didn't realize you thought there even was a God, or that his word would be in the Bible. Do you? I'm sorry for my ignorance and/or forgetfulness if you've mentioned it before. I'm definitely getting older, and some of my brain cells are preceding me to heaven! Anyway, if you think beastiality is wrong because God says so in his word, then why do you think homosexuality is right? Or am I wrong about that, too? Anyway, you're apparently claiming that something is wrong because it's against God's word. Well, from my careful studies and thoughts, I think homosexuality is wrong because it's against God's word, to put it VERY simply (and I hate to say that, because IMO it's much more complex then that, but I'll just use the same phrasing you used). So if you're willing to say something is wrong because God's word says its wrong, then I would think you'd be willing to grant me the same right, wouldn't you? Quote:
It seems to me that either 1) there are absolute truths, or 2) there are NOT absolute truths (and I don't see any more options!) If option 1, then a person's belief about what the absolute truth is in the matter should determine whether something is right or wrong, correct? If option 2, then there IS no right or wrong, because to have a right or wrong, you have to have something unchanging to compare it to. (and if you want to say "it's right for this time, but maybe not always", then there's STILL an absolute truth - it's that something IS right for this time.) From what I see, the people who think homosexual marriage is fine are the people who claim that there are no absolute truths, yet they turn around and base their arguments on things that they claim are RIGHT (i.e., that are absolute truths). This is just plain incorrect reasoning, and that's what I'm pointing out. People say that two consenting men and two consenting women should be able to marry. They're claiming that ALL PEOPLE should recognize that marriage SHOULD BE between two consenting adults, no matter what the sex - IOW, they're appealing to the existence of an absolute truth. But if they have previously said there isn't such a thing, then I won't allow their appeal without pointing out the double standard. Quote:
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And seriously, if there aren't absolute truths, why IS bestiality even wrong? I mean, I think it's wrong, but what reason could a person give that it's wrong if they don't think there are absolute truths? And let me make very clear that I don't consider homosexuals to be animals. I think they're amazing, valuable people, EXACTLY like hets. But that doesn't stop me from analyzing arguments about them, or about anything. And frankly, if they want to expand marriage definitions to include man/man and woman/woman, then what LOGICAL reason do they have for stopping there? Any reason they have would necessarily involve an appeal to the existence of an absolute truth, and we're right back to the beginning. If "harm" is brought up again, then of course that appeals to an absolute truth, too - first, that it's "WRONG" to harm someone, and second, that "HARM" is what that particular person thinks it is, as opposed to what someone else thinks it is. Quote:
I hope we can all stick with this a bit longer and I'll try to clarify whatever isn't clear. *sigh* long, hard post - I wish we could just talk ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-16-2006 at 02:51 AM. |
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06-16-2006, 02:48 AM | #564 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(btw, atheists/agnostics - I'm waiting for you guys to descend on BB and say he's wrong to appeal to the word of God!, just like you tell me that I'm wrong!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-16-2006, 03:03 AM | #565 | ||
Elf Lord
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My point is that it is irrelevant to the rights and wrongs of the debate. My hope would be that you would examine the arguments and we would have a debate. Clearly, though, since I'm not an absolutist then my arguments are not valid. Reason, logic and a social contract are, it seems, an inherently inferior basis for morality than superstition. |
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06-16-2006, 03:22 AM | #566 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think that the question "do absolute truths exist" is VERY relevant to the debate. I guess we just disagree.
I'm examining the arguments and pointing out what I think are logical flaws. I guess I'm just not explaining myself well. I'm examining your arguments and showing where I think they're flawed. It's late here - time zones are bummers - I need some sleep. It's not that since you're not an absolutist, your arguments are automatically flawed. It's that since you're not an absolutist, if you make absolutist statements then I'll call you on it. Goodnight, and I wish we could sit and talk somewhere.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-16-2006, 03:41 AM | #567 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, I think we disagree on that first point.
All threads lead to Rome... Sweet dreams |
06-16-2006, 12:32 PM | #568 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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This Has Gotten Way Too Broad
remarks about sex with animals, and other vents have gotten too far afield and too personal.
temporarily closed for 48 hrs. to let all cool down |
06-18-2006, 11:15 AM | #569 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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47 hrs-ok, now let's keep on topic and not attack the poster!
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06-19-2006, 12:35 PM | #570 | |
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Uh, guys and gals, I was joking with Lotesse and Nurvie! Nurv took it that way, it seems, but a lot of folks seem to have taken offence. It was intended to be a jest and I thought the made it plain. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea (nonintentionalis) maxima culpa.
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06-19-2006, 01:12 PM | #571 | |
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06-19-2006, 01:57 PM | #572 |
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editied by MOD
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ Last edited by Spock : 06-20-2006 at 10:51 AM. Reason: off topic |
06-19-2006, 03:09 PM | #573 | ||
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I vMea culpa, mea culpa, mea (nonintentionalis) maxima culpa.[/QUOTE]I kinda figured you were joking. Even with a , jokes are sometimes hard to discern in text. I'd throw in a j/k or a *joking* to be safe, because people do seem to misread your dry (and hilarious IMO) sense of humour sometimes.
KEEP ON TOPIC-MOD
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Last edited by Spock : 06-20-2006 at 10:52 AM. Reason: off topic |
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06-19-2006, 08:34 PM | #574 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC NO CHIT CHAT
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06-19-2006, 10:19 PM | #575 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OFF TOPIC
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Spock : 06-20-2006 at 10:53 AM. Reason: TOPIC |
06-19-2006, 10:55 PM | #576 |
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I had rather not wished to get too absorbed in these "General" topics of late - especially the more "touchy" ones (I just prefer Tolkien) - but I read something the other day that took me a bit by surprise. Let me toss it out there and see what the rest of you think:
Would you expect that the legalization and further acceptance of gay marriage might be used to morally support human cloning? The argument went something like this: Now that gays can be married, shouldn't they have as much right to children of their own as heterosexuals? So - as I said - what do you think?
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06-20-2006, 03:07 AM | #577 |
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Interesting question, nice to see something beyond the usual in this thread, Val.
I can see it might create a demand for human cloning, but that would have to compete against all the other ways in which gays can already have kids: fostering, adoption, donor insemination (in the case of lesbians), surrogacy, etc. There are other, stronger arguments for cloning which would take precedence I would have thought. Anyway, I don't think anyone has a "right" to have kids as such. It reminds me of that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Where's the foetus going to gestate? In a box???" |
06-20-2006, 03:58 AM | #578 | |
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Since cloning is a) expensive, b) still with flaw and c) controlled or (at least commercially) banned by the government in most countries that have the necessary facilities, I don't see this as a much-used road to furfill a child-wish. No, most likely adoption and women who agree to carry somebody else's baby to term (there's probably a correct word for them, but I know only the Dutch one) are going to be considered most. Whether homosexual couples have an equal 'right' to children as heterosexual couples may still end up be as great legal dispute as their right to marriage.
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 06-20-2006 at 04:01 AM. Reason: typo's |
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06-20-2006, 06:22 AM | #579 | |
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Now if legislation made it possible for infertile couples to use cloning to get a child, the question would arise if gay couples should have the same right.
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06-20-2006, 12:06 PM | #580 | |
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I think you contradict yourself here. The pressure from the infertile couples is not driving cloning at present. But, if gay "marriage" is instituted then the necessity for cloning would be enhanced by the "infertility" of gay couples who would no doubt feel obliged to stridently demand it. I can hear the pre-echoes of the gay argument for goverment sponsored cloning even now. The argument is to assert parity and then demand special status. The problem is "which" partner gets cloned. Males could only produce males and females only females. So I can forsee the demand for goverment sponsored research to allow the fusion of two same-sexed gametes to merge to produce a 'new' individual. Just such a scenario was in fact a predicate of one of Rober Heinlein's sci-fi tales from the 60's (sorry I can't recall the title of the short story, but it involved two astronauts who had been sent to Mars). The analogous situation in action today would be the demand for goverment sponsorship of stem-cell research. The alleged and perceived "benefits" are merely alleged and need much work before analysis of risk:benefit ratios could be even projected. You are well aware of all the hype in this area politically now. The same would undoubtedly occur as I have outlined above in the case of the "speciality" of gay "marriage".
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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